To lol at the feminism threads....

[Hannah4banana]

Seriously are people constantly looking out for a way to be offended first world problems!

Cant not have that male validation eh pooch

Im grateful to some arguments given by some of the earlier pp's I kow I'm not the OP but threads like this is what makes MN such a fun, made me waste an entire fucking morning lol informative place to be

Some really good points FuckityShitBalls (nice moniker), but what should be done about this? How should unpaid labour (child-rearing) become paid labour or be raised in status?

I understand that there all these issues, but what is it feminists
propose should be done about them? Because I for one have not got a clue.

yetanother and beyond - I assume it's because mumsnet isn't an American site. It's probably just geographical, although people like Margaret Atwood (Canada, obviously) and the feminist Anne Summers here in Australia are all over it. Margaret Atwood has agreed when someone likened the potential erosion of women's basic reproductive rights to that described in The Handmaid's Tale. I'm in Australia so none of it directly affects me or my daughters but I'm worried about a sort of right-wing knock on effect.

In the case of child-rearing I suppose what is required is so much well-paid work that couples are able to choose who stays at home and child-rears and who works - or how they share work and child-rearing between both of them. In that case the woman has equal bargaining power.

However, it may have escaped your notice but well-paid is disappearing from the economy. It's being automated out of existence. In the future the whole question of who stays at home will become redundant because no one will be able to. Both members of a couple will have to work just in order to survive. I for one don't know anyone who can afford to be SAHM.

You're talking as though we still live in a 1950's mixed economy.

I haven't read the full thread either, too busy working for free and feeding the baby.

You don't have to agree with it. You have the right to think what you want, but YABU to trivialize opinions in such a way.

A "first world problem" is the dust left by the builders one has to vacuum each day (my builder told me he has clients who complain about any dust.) It is not the constant subjugation of women, in so many infinitesimally small ways that many women don't even notice it, and" lol" that others do.

I have lots else to worry about, OP. But that doesn't mean I can ignore this issue.

There was an interesting thread a few months ago about the gender pay gap. Specifically that as legislation provides for equality there wasn't one. ( in the UK).

A pp provided links to some useful data on the value of gender in certain roles. Coding, for instance was originally a woman's job as it was felt that attention to detail and dexterity was a female trait and it was poorly paid. As men started to join, it changed to be thought of as a more intellectual job, a trait traditionally thought of as male and the salaries went up accordingly.

Likewise the rural fishing industry (I forget where but I'll try and find the links). Men had historically sewn the nets as it was considered complicated and the net had to be strong. These traits were valued and paid accordingly. Women did the fishing and were paid less as it was more straightforward. Gradually over time it changed and the net makers were female dominated. The fishing was considered harder and the pay switched in favour of the men doing it.

Likewise typing. Originally considered a male job as it was thought it required stamina (!). Gradually women started to do it and the pay slid down.

This one is anecdotal - when I was younger teaching was considered a more of a male job. It was also considered one of the 'professions' like being a lawyer or a doctor. Over 50 odd years, it has become female dominated and, despite being very hard, I don't believe is considered as highly as the other professions any longer.

I will try and find the link before anyone asks.

I consider myself a feminist but the feminist i have come across do not. I avoid the boards because of whitewashing and classism.

I consider feminism to be to allow a woman, any colour women, any age woman to make her own choices but women too often get shouted down by other women for wanting to wear a hardscarf or makeup or for shaving their legs or liking pink or choosing to be a sahm.

Feminism should be all emcompassing and supporting all women. It is not.

So yes im anti fgm, i think a burka covered women can still be a feminist if its her choice and who are we to tell her different, that a sahm can be a feminist, etc

So yes i am a femimist but i dont think most feminists would want me or welcome me. Ive been told im not a feminist before.

These things are damaging to men too. They are told that they aren't as clever as girls when they are young, so don't bother trying. They are told to 'man up' and either drown or punch out their feelings. They are told that they 'babysit' their kids, rather than parent them. They are told that their job is to provide for their family and that they aren't a real man if they can't

And who is doing this? You guessed it, other women and feminists

Feminists are saying that? Really? Misss, that's a bigger miss than usual for you.

Of course they are. Better for you to be in denial I suppose

Feminism is failing to address the important moral, social and economic issues that underpin gender relations. It's just another online techno subculture talking to itself while the world burns.

• I avoid the boards because of whitewashing and classism. I consider feminism to be to allow a woman, any colour women, any age woman to make her own choices but women too often get shouted down by other women for wanting to wear a hardscarf or makeup or for shaving their legs or liking pink or choosing to be a sahm.* This absolutely doesn't happen on the feminist boards for any lurkers. I don't understand why we get such bad press. I don't go on Christian board and bang on about how religion is bad

I'll 'have' you, flirty. I'm a sahm and still a feminist :) (even a MN feminist)

Only got to p8 where I read FenellaMaxwell's post and agreed with every word.

The number of younger women identifying as not-feminists is depressing. The more so when they are highly educated professionals and still can't see how their choices would have been possible without feminism - and SO recently.

It's a real failure of imagination. Perhaps when they are middle aged and less fêted by men they will have a sudden revelation. Or something.

flirty do you think there are any choices a woman can make which are anti-feminist? Would you support them to make that decision too?

I find the femenist boards intimidating sometimes I don"t have the words or understanding to debate things so I avoid the boards does not mean I am not a feminist.

I'm very independent but I took my husbands name and I'm so happy to be labelled a "wife". We are in it 50/60 why should I be judged because of that? I am so happy with my life, everyone is different.

Does it not occur to you that the reason you're able to be independent and the reason you were able to choose to take your husband's name is because of the feminists who paved the way for you to be able to make that choice? If you've chosen your life, then great, good for you, I hope you enjoy it. But it's because of feminism that you have that choice and that your life hasn't been mapped out for you from the moment your gender was discovered.

The problem is that millions of females all over the world are still having their choices taken away from them because they are considered to be worth less than males. And the problem is made so much worse by idiots who can't or won't understand that feminism is so much more than issues that they consider trivial.

There is still so much that needs to be done before females are considered equal to males. Pay equality, conviction rates for rape, domestic violence, victim blaming etc. But hey, you've got what you want from feminism, so why bother? Your attitude makes me despair.

I will say once again that I think people are mixing up third wave choosey choosey feminism with the kind that is more prominent here. And assuming that because feminists understand the root cause of a behaviour is patriarchy, they will negatively judge anyone who carries out such a behaviour. Whereas I think you will find that there are many women who shave their legs or wear make up on the FWR boards

Hannah4banana
Maybe it's because I've never experienced it but it does seem a bit ott. Someone called me a girl and not a woman and I'm angry. Seriously! So much more in the world to be offended about.

Would you call a black man Boy? Why not?

The gender pay gap for 30-39 year olds in full time work is now 1.5%, having drifted into negative territory a couple of years ago (i.e there is no statistically significant pay gap below 40).

At the same time a girl is 35% more likely to go to university than a boy, a gap that is widening every year.

The reality is that the pay gap is a combination of historical sexism and choice. It is almost certain to reverse over the next few years given the disparity in educational outcomes.

User, not PR, no. Other jobs like teaching though. Why do you ask?

I wondered what your answer would be Pam.

I am Mrs I have no issue with that i used to be miss then miss I would rather choose my name than be lumbered with the surnames I was given through no choice

Wer hav a lot left to do as many are saying and most of us are all on the same side. The fact smoe feminists have different concerns from others does not remove the fact that most of us, male and female, want to ensure the world has less gender inequality.

I know most of us realise a lot of criticism of feminism is just people trying to do women down so it is best just to concentrate on the main issues around equality. However people can throw whatever stones they want. Free speech is important.

In the middle east women are welding machine guns and belts of ammo which even bigger men struggle to use. They are fighting their oppressors

Meanwhile over here: We need quotas to get more women in the military. Yes we will lower the test scores so women do fewer press-ups. What? Women shouldn't be on the front lines when they can't be held to the same standards of men? Sexist, misogynistic, patriarchy. I'm going to my echochamber safe space lalala can't hear you

"These things are damaging to men too. They are told that they aren't as clever as girls when they are young, so don't bother trying. They are told to 'man up' and either drown or punch out their feelings. They are told that they 'babysit' their kids, rather than parent them. They are told that their job is to provide for their family and that they aren't a real man if they can't"

These things are most definitely said to boys and men. But I really don't think it's feminists saying it. It's men. And women who don't identify as feminists. Why do you think feminists say those things? where have you seen them doing it?

Why do we all have to identify as feminists with a label. Can't I just be a strong independent woman in my own right?