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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To lol at the feminism threads....

999 replies

Hannah4banana · 18/12/2016 00:58

Seriously are people constantly looking out for a way to be offended Hmm first world problems!

OP posts:
PamBagnallsGotACollage · 18/12/2016 12:14

Hannah, got to the bit where you mentioned not ever having experienced sexism are gender inequality and used being the only female in a team of men in your place of work in the emergency services. Did you never wonder why there weren't any other women there? I guess you just assumed you were the only woman ever to have applied for a job there.

PamBagnallsGotACollage · 18/12/2016 12:15

*or not are

EnormousTiger · 18/12/2016 12:15

The pay gap for childless women v men in the UK? You close that in the following ways:
1.Make sure girls are brought up to realise they can earn as much as men and their role in life is not just to marry, have ab ig wedding, wear pink and support men.

  1. Ensure girls are encouraged into careers with high pay, not female low paid caring type jobs, worthy though those might be.
  2. Look at how promotions are achieved - do you need to attend the parties and drink ( my daughter reports at a work Christmas do last week [yes 2016] there was a huge inflatable penis for example); do you have to be in the right gentlemen's club (cf Hale's comments about the Supreme Court - Garrick I think it was....); is there a culture of promoting people who are like those at the top?

Loads and loads of things we can do to help childless women even achieve pay equality. The state is trying - you can now under the Equality Act 2010 obtain details of gendered pay as part of a discrimination action even if the employment contract contains a clause prohibiting disclosure of pay to colleagues.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 18/12/2016 12:15

Again Well need to attack me and my family because I dont agree in your ideology and ill restate I'm not an MRA I just choose not to live my life in an echo chamber

quencher · 18/12/2016 12:16

I'm the same Pluto. I work in the emergency services. I was the only female at one point with a locker room for 15 to myself. I can honestly say ive never experienced any sexism or judgment about my gender. Maybe I'm lucky but there many females in the same position. I actually prefer working with men! No bitching or holding grudges. Shoot me now. My guess is if you can come on Mn and lol at feminist fighting for you, so that you are not the only woman in your line of work.
It's probable that you wouldn't know sexism if it hit on the face. How could you if you can call some of the basis of sexism petty, irrelevant and first world problems.

Perhaps the reason men choose more violent methods of suicide is because they genuinely want to die.
Maybe, to avoid embarrassment. It's not a manly thing, is it? They are conditioned to think that way. Men are meant to cope and not break down. Be man and not cry or seek help for his emotions. As man you can't talk about your problems and emotions. It's unmanly. It not macho. Be brave till you break down. Feminist actually challenge those stereotypes.

nolongersurprised · 18/12/2016 12:18

If the mumsnet feminist threads were more relevant to me (and I accept that for others they're thought-provoking and stimulating) id probably visit there more often.

On mumsnet, every 3rd thread or so in feminist chat is about transgender issues. For me, I'm more focused on how the new VP of the USA will be Mike Pence - he who promotes the legistation that women who have a termination will need to bury or cremate their aborted fetuses. There will be widespread badness happening to women's reproductive rights in the USA in the next few years.

user1482025636 · 18/12/2016 12:18

Pam have you ever wondered why more women work in public relations agencies?

PacificDogwod · 18/12/2016 12:18

Talking rubbish is very much an equal opportunity pastime, no argument from me there.

Sandi Toksvig suggested that parental leave after baby should be split between both parents - if fathers had to take parental leave, wanna bet that systems would come in place to allow for that to happen? And that careers would be evened out?

Just a tiny example of how things could be changed if there was the will.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 18/12/2016 12:19

I agree with that Pacific

NotAMammy · 18/12/2016 12:21

Just sorry, I haven't read all of your posts, so just a couple of points from me.

You are right that young women out earn young men. Why is that? Is it because during school years, girls are told that they must focus on their studies and go to uni, whereas boys are told that books are for girls and they should be outside playing football, etc. Is it fair that boys should expect to score less on their exams even though they are in the same classes and getting the same opportunities as girls? Maybe they are having societal expectations of gender thrust on them. Maybe we are implying to girls that they have to work harder at their studies to progress in a career. Would it not be beneficial to both men and women that we question this?
www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds

At the stage where young women are out earning young men, they are normally in a graduate level or lower earnings level. Young women are also more likely to go to university than young men. Young men may go to apprenticeships, work from the ground up or go to uni.

Why is this? Maybe it's a continuation of the above trend that women are told that they need to have a qualification to prove themselves? (This can be linked to studies mentioned by Sheryl Sandberg in her TED Talk that men are more likely to go for promotions before they have the experience, whereas women wait until they have the experience and can back it up) Perhaps it's because women are more likely to work in caring professions which now require degrees? This BBC article has an interesting statistic about that: www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37107208

But by their mid 30s men are massively out earning women. Why is that? Is it because the earlier jobs that paid women marginally better do not offer the same route of salary progression? Is it because women are less likely to go for promotions? Is it because women are still only a few generations in to having a career so we are expected (and expect ourselves) to be happier with a job that offers a good work/life balance rather than pushing on for that extra level of responsibility and higher wage? Whereas a man has to go for that higher wage so he can better provide for his (current or future) family. Or is it because we are settling for somewhere with a good maternity policy even if we aren't planning having kids just yet.

And once we do have kids, the mother is still seen as the main carer. It's not unheard of for the father to be the primary carer, but we hear about it, because it's still unusual. Things like the recently introduced shared parental leave may help, but that policy is pretty shit and badly thought out (imo) so it's not as well utilised as it could be.

I also wonder (I don't have stats for this, just thinking aloud) whether men are more likely to work in self-employment or small businesses that are less understanding about a father needing to take time off because the kids are sick, etc, rather than a small businesses expectations of a mother.

These things are damaging to men too. They are told that they aren't as clever as girls when they are young, so don't bother trying. They are told to 'man up' and either drown or punch out their feelings. They are told that they 'babysit' their kids, rather than parent them. They are told that their job is to provide for their family and that they aren't a real man if they can't.

And that's why I think we still need feminism. Xmas Biscuit

PamBagnallsGotACollage · 18/12/2016 12:22

User, not PR, no. Other jobs like teaching though. Why do you ask?

user1477128306 · 18/12/2016 12:22

Things can only be changed by men, they're ultimately the ones required to make it happen, and men don't like feminists.

Missswatch · 18/12/2016 12:23

These things are damaging to men too. They are told that they aren't as clever as girls when they are young, so don't bother trying. They are told to 'man up' and either drown or punch out their feelings. They are told that they 'babysit' their kids, rather than parent them. They are told that their job is to provide for their family and that they aren't a real man if they can't*

And who is doing this? You guessed it, other women and feminists

YetAnotherSpartacus · 18/12/2016 12:24

For me, I'm more focused on how the new VP of the USA will be Mike Pence - he who promotes the legistation that women who have a termination will need to bury or cremate their aborted fetuses. There will be widespread badness happening to women's reproductive rights in the USA in the next few years.

Nolongersurprised - I'm not American, but I am very interested in the erosion of women's reproductive rights. I'm also very interested in trans issues (and am obviously Spartacus). Do you think that the lack of focus on the FWR threads is because the main push-point at the moment re reproductive rights is the US, or because posters are not interested in this topic?

InfiniteCurve · 18/12/2016 12:25

As far as I have read so far - and I've run out of time to read more! - the University of Tennessee lawsuit is being brought because of concern that the investigative process for sexual assault cases at UoT is biased against the complainants,and heavily in favour of student athletes accused of the assaults. It doesn't seem to be arguing for the assumption that the accused are actually guilty,but is saying that the process gives representation and advantage to them,and is asking for the system to be changed.

growapear · 18/12/2016 12:25

Why is that? Is it because during school years, girls are told that they must focus on their studies and go to uni, whereas boys are told that books are for girls and they should be outside playing football, etc.

No, it's because education has been feminised, no male primary teachers. Women aren't interested in equality in every profession, so many are overloaded with women, primary education is the biggest example, but there will be many more in the future.

And - where do you have evidence that any boy is being told in 2016 that "books are for girls" ?

user1482025636 · 18/12/2016 12:26

You are right that young women out earn young men. Why is that? Is it because during school years, girls are told that they must focus on their studies and go to uni, whereas boys are told that books are for girls and they should be outside playing football, etc.

Not entirely. It is also because many of the dominant employment sectors these days favour women.

BeyondIBringYouGoodTidings · 18/12/2016 12:27

Just a wild stab in the dark, but I'd guess that women who are concerned about Pence are probably posting on the existing (and rather busy) Trump/Election threads. Plus there's the fact that this isn't an American site so there are simply fewer people who are actively affected by it.

BertrandRussell · 18/12/2016 12:29

"And who is doing this? You guessed it, other women and feminists"

Blimey. In my experience (no stats of course) most of that crap comes from men and from women who don't identify as feminists. I don't recognise any of that as feminist thinking.

Missswatch · 18/12/2016 12:31

It.doesn't mean it doesn't happen if you are unaware of it

PoochSmooch · 18/12/2016 12:31

I'm another who's keen to see the links to threads where people have been bullied off the feminism boards.

I've seen disagreements, sure. But it's a discussion board. Disagreements are the oxygen of the site. There are many versions of feminism (and many schools of thought masquerading as feminism that are no such thing, but that's another thread I suspect).

Posters who come there with a specific anti-feminist agenda are at risk of getting their arses handed to them. As they should - it's a feminist board. If your only interest in feminism is shouting down feminists, then you're not there in good faith. I'm not aware of anywhere on the internet that requires politeness and courtesy to bad faith posters. why would the feminism boards here be the exception?

Saracen · 18/12/2016 12:31

Sorry, haven't RTFT and probably things have moved on...

Early on, a pp said "your 13 year old daughter gets lewd comments shouted at her in the street" which really hit home for me.

When I was a young woman I wasn't much into feminism because I thought that if I could put up with how I was being treated, everything was okay. Everybody else "should" be unbothered by similar treatment. It only seemed worth standing up to defend people who were being majorly abused, let's allow the minor infractions to slide or we risk being thought ridiculous.

Now I am middle aged and have daughters, I have the sickening realisation that I've been an idiot. Harassment and inequality had a deeper effect on me than I realised at the time. Now I see young women being subjected to the same and worse, and I know I played a part in creating this world. I should have acted sooner.

Fortunately I no longer fear being thought ridiculous, because I love my daughters more than I loved my 13yo self.

FuckityShitBalls · 18/12/2016 12:33

I haven't RTFT so apologies for that, but to dismiss feminism seems woefully ignorant. I have always been a feminist, but since having children I am even more convinced of how uneven of our society is, and how undervalued "traditionally female" work is. I am a SAHM so instead of earning a wage for my work, I work for free in the family home. There are certainly some people who think that it's a waste of my degree, a death-knell to my career and makes me a bad example to my children as their father is the breadwinner and I do most of the housework and cooking. I think it is a really pertinent feminist issue that time spent raising the next generation is seen as an option exclusively for work-shy women who want to sit on their arses watching Jeremy Kyle, or rich yummy mummies. In reality, there are plenty of intelligent women who don't have free childcare and/or choose to take the hit on their career in order to spend those pre-school years at home. Until that is seen as a worthwhile endeavour and treated with respect then I feel we have a long way to go. Unpaid care work is crucial to our society but has no status. Very sad.

PoochSmooch · 18/12/2016 12:36

men don't like feminists.

Don't they?

I must remember to tell my husband, my father, and all of my many male friends that they mustn't like me any more Grin Have they been lying about loving me all this time? This is a worry. Better give up feminism.

EverySongbirdSays · 18/12/2016 12:40

I haven't read the full thread. I've read 5 pages, and will be turning back to complete it, and in some ways am placemarking. I like the OP am 35 and I am always appalled when I hear women my age and younger say "not a feminist"

OP - Do you believe women should have the right to vote?

Do you believe that if you do the exact same job as a man you should have the same pay?

If you were raped, would you want the legal right to an abortion?

If you were raped, and your rapist was your husband would you want the right to prosecute?

Answer yes to all these

CONGRATAFUCKINLATIONS - you're a feminist