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To lol at the feminism threads....

999 replies

Hannah4banana · 18/12/2016 00:58

Seriously are people constantly looking out for a way to be offended Hmm first world problems!

OP posts:
quencher · 18/12/2016 11:21

Drastically higher suicide rates in men, significantly harsher sentences for a man who commits the same crime as a woman, the automatic favouring of mothers over fathers in family law/court etc. I see these issues in my (male dominated) work every day. But apparently we can only focus on one sex's set of issues at a time. Accepting feminism would solve that. All of that is the result of a patriarchal society. The automatic favouriting is only because most mothers spend most of the time with the children, (Feminist issue). Should the child be given to someone they spent less time with compared to the other? Who knows more how to look after a child in most cases better because they were socialised into duty of child rearing. Why should the man just up and leave and leaving all responsibilities to the woman. Yes, a lot of women leave their families too but not at the rate men do it? And maybe if society didn't expect mother to be the main carer the judges would have a different view of where the child will feel happiest. ( hint, feminist issues fight patriarchy where men would benefit in this instance).

Men commit 96% of murders worldwide. Of course violence is gendered. It may be about the individual, but that individual is likely to be male. This is another patriarchal issue too. How men are brought up in society. The power men feel they have. Fighting for power. Attacking and defence. Super heroes, warriors, Spider-Man, superman, batman, James Bond you name it. It's what men do, right? Innit Grin of course they are socialised into thinking that way. Let the boys play fight, they are just being boys. Sit down and cross your legs, you are a girl. Being socialised into becoming a perfect lady who wouldn't hurt a fly. Prince Charming will fight the dragons and horrible monsters for you or come to save you. Violence is bred. Not everyone who is susceptible to violence goes on to commit murder or become violent.
Most wars are fronted by men to gain power. I once heard that a lot of wars in history were fought over women. I guess women needed protecting or own as possessions. Op, that must be great for you. Nowadays they are fought over oil to sustain power while women remain the main child careers to service capitalism. Op, yes, there are some women who share work equally including child care. I assume you would shared childcare. Did your father do the same with your mother I wonder? Did your grandfather ever thought of taking household responsibilities. If not, what has happened now that you and your dh think differently? Big hint! FEMINISM. The joy both you and husband without people being judgemental and people calling him names for doing the dishes. It's what feminist worked for. It didn't just happen out of the blue.

The wages gap is shocking anyway. No way should a sport person get paid more than a nurse but unfortunately that's what happens and I hope it changes! This is an issue and a capitalist one too. Reason being sport people are paid based on endorsements and ticket sales. Our hospitals can't compete with capitalism. I would say that nurses should be paid more than what they are being paid now. The feminist issue with sport is how much endorsements female sports get. how much they are paid, how they are valued. The only reason they are not paid the same amount as men is because we as the public place less value in female sports.
Example of football. In the uk football is seen as men's sport. We value it and pay men more money. In America, football or soccer is seen as female sport. It's less popular and gets less endorsements.
With female football in this country, I wouldn't know if it was on tv. Men's one though, i don't need to switch channels. One of the five channels will have it, the is are lost of sports channels too. If not, the house a cross the road will have the banner to let me know it's on and who they are supporting. Grin the screaming a lone is a clue.

Plus younger women earn more than men of the same age.
Until they have kids and become a stay at home mums or take time off for maternity leave. Take afternoon off for hospitable appointments, sick leave for children. Most women do double work for those who work full time with kids. The job they are paid for and house work. While men are scared to take the current maternity leave because it will affect their work, promotions and pay rises. It's ok for us women but not for men. Yah! It's not a feminist issue, right? These men all suffering before the age of 25 my arse. 25 is when the tables turn for women in wage earning. Where you start being looked over because they suspect you will leave anytime you have anew man in your life. Dh told me how women are over looked over when they get to 25 and it's shocking. How the promotions are given based on who is not likely to have a baby among the women because they are an investment that the company has to have. The thing is men are never judged in this manor are they. They expect us women to give up our jobs.
Funny how I know lots of men who have decided to get married because it makes them look stable in their jobs while their wives stay at home to look after the children. Hint! Patriarchy. Feminist issues.

Someone asked on another thread. Why isn't blue used on meaningful and important things that people value. The answer was because it's girly and women are valued less. Pink is no longer seen as important. Even though it once was because it was seen as a light colour of red. Red was important to men and used to show power. Go to the portrait gallery and see the colour of cloaks those men are are wearing. Now pink is linked to glitter princess and not a prince or anything that deserves respect.

If a woman was to be paid for weekly house work, a bout ten years ago the price was valued at £450. Is a husband willing to pay that.

Lol. So don't miss my above jokes.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 18/12/2016 11:22

Just,when you say Third Wave Feminists want freedom without responsibility what exactly do you mean?

The want for equality of outcome not equality of opportunity
The abolition of due process in rape/sexual assault cases
The labelling of anti feminism speech as hate speech

Off the top of my head.

Thank you everyone for the debate I'm enjoying it immensely, on another note did the OP post anything else?

LouMumsnet · 18/12/2016 11:23

Morning all. Thank you for (all!) the reports on this thread, which we appreciate.

We've taken a good look at the thread and we just wanted to let you know that we have no reason to suspect that the OP is anything but genuine - and expressing an opinion which, of course, is their right.

There are some pretty interesting debates on here and we do feel that it would be a shame for the thread to go. Thanks everyone.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 18/12/2016 11:24

But I don't believe you want to be disproved. You just want to put us angry little feminists in our place. Youve decided we're whining about nothing and you want us to realise how wrong we are. And ain't no one got time fo' that, least of all me.

That is not the case I hope this isnt how its being seen I'd be gutted if it was

GhostOfChristmasYetToCome · 18/12/2016 11:26

Just I hope I'm not included in the people 'flaming' you. Because that's certainly not what I've been doing. I was 'flamed' on here about 10 years ago for saying something that I considered to be pretty standard and really was shot down in flames for it. At the time I thought, "ffs, what an overreaction". Nowadays? I'd challenge it myself.

It's good to have our thinking/beliefs challenged on occasion. It helps us learn and grow. Sometimes, we change our opinions and sometimes we don't. But at least we are making our judgements from a more enlightened position.

Also, it's "couldn't care less" as in the amount I care about this could not be any less. If you could care less, it means there is still the capacity for you to care less about it which means that, on some level, you care. Wink

BertrandRussell · 18/12/2016 11:26

I am so pleased the thread isn't going to be pulled. Quite often ops like this provoke a lot of very interesting discussion- and attract people who won't go on FWR. And deletion gets rid of loads of thoughtful and helpful posts that people have put time and effort into.

Hannah4banana · 18/12/2016 11:26

Spent half the morning catching g up on all the posts from overnight. In hindsight the topic of the thread was pretty flippant and as much as I've been called our over my views on here I'm kinda glad I started it as it's certainly given me a lot to think about. I could have put my opinion more eloquently. I still don't think the feminist forums are the place for me but it's been interesting reading all the replies from all different sides so thanks for that. I am definitely for equality but not at the detriment of individual merit. Sometimes I think these things get a bit mixed.

OP posts:
EnormousTiger · 18/12/2016 11:27

The want for equality of outcome not equality of opportunity - no we don't.
The abolition of due process in rape/sexual assault cases - no we don't want that either.
The labelling of anti feminism speech as hate speech - no - happy to have free speech. As soon as you start censoring you lose the argument.

Women have suffered badly at the hands of men for about 5000 years. We are starting in the West at least to gain a bit more equality but there is a long way to go before things are fair. The History of Women in player is worth watching if anyone is interested in the historical perspective.

WellErrr · 18/12/2016 11:27

The want for equality of outcome not equality of opportunity

Am I right in thinking that by this, you mean that women just want high wages etc without doing the same work? Apologies if not but I'm struggling to see exactly what you mean.

The abolition of due process in rape/sexual assault cases

Really?? Again, I hope I'm misunderstanding you here, but could you clarify?

The labelling of anti feminism speech as hate speech

You're wrong here. Anti- women speech should be labelled as hate speech.

When crimes are committed against women purely because they are women, why shouldn't it be a hate crime like any other?

Can you imagine getting away with paying people less, for example, just because they were black?

No.

FannyThat · 18/12/2016 11:28

Dame perhaps you should reread my comment. At no point do I say feminism consists solely of getting angry at being called a girl.

Your next two points are just odd.

BertrandRussell · 18/12/2016 11:29

"Just,when you say Third Wave Feminists want freedom without responsibility what exactly do you mean?

The want for equality of outcome not equality of opportunity
The abolition of due process in rape/sexual assault cases
The labelling of anti feminism speech as hate speech"

I'm sorry-I still don't know what you mean. I don'5 think I know anyone who wants any of those things.

WellErrr · 18/12/2016 11:29

That is not the case I hope this isnt how its being seen I'd be gutted if it was

Then prepare to feel gutted; it's exactly how you're coming across, which is why you're putting people's backs up.

WellErrr · 18/12/2016 11:30

I'm glad it's not just me Bertrand, I couldn't make head nor tail.

Lweji · 18/12/2016 11:30

The want for equality of outcome not equality of opportunity

Equality of outcome is how equality of opportunity is measured. Feminists don't want positions of responsibility just for being women. Positive discrimination, however, is a tool in the path for equal opportunities. When women (or other groups that have problems making it in an equal footing) are given access and show that they can do the same or better jobs, it becomes normal and positive discrimination is no longer necessary.

The abolition of due process in rape/sexual assault cases
Really? Where has this been proposed?

The labelling of anti feminism speech as hate speech
Anti-feminist speech or anti-women speech?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 18/12/2016 11:32

Wage gap - Equality of outcome
Abolition of due process - University of Tenessee's current lawsuit
Antifeminism speech as hate speech - Anita sarkesian at the UN last year I believe

BertrandRussell · 18/12/2016 11:33

I could make a guess at what's meant but I am reluctant to, in case I am wrong...........

We have an expression in our family "Please could you try different words"

Just, please could you try different words?

WellErrr · 18/12/2016 11:34

I'm not sure about that law suit, I'll have to look it up before I comment, but I don't get your problem with women wanting equal pay for equal work?

Or do you not believe that women do equal work?

WellErrr · 18/12/2016 11:35

Same Bertrand, I really hope he doesn't mean what I think he means.

Lweji · 18/12/2016 11:37

Wage gap - Equality of outcome
In case you haven't noticed, the wage gap campaign is about being paid the same for doing the same job, with the same hours. It's the gap that's unfair.
Women want the opportunity to earn the same as men for the same input.

Abolition of due process - University of Tenessee's current lawsuit
Antifeminism speech as hate speech - Anita sarkesian at the UN last year I believe
Without being familiar with those, are they widespread feminist views?
And you might explain how they justify your claims (preferably with links).

user1482025636 · 18/12/2016 11:40

Can I raise the possibility that the economy is starting to favour women - or at least a certain demographic of women.

Western economies have been de-industrialised, leaving huge numbers of men out of work and without a way back in to remunerative employment. Replacing them are service industries that favour women. Women are perceived to have better social skills and therefore a young, educated woman does have an advantage over an ex docker when applying for a job in marketing. Working-class men are now one of the most discriminated against groups in society.

Young women are now earning more than men, and both men are unemployed and homeless in the UK and US.

If I could choose the gender of my child on the basis of career prospects, I'd have a daughter.

Boundaries · 18/12/2016 11:41

Ahhhh, we say that too Betrand.

I think in this case he needs to try different opinions.....but I could be wrong....

JustAnotherPoster00 · 18/12/2016 11:42

Of course women do equal work and should be payed for it. But as far as I can tell because of having children and subsequent time off that should be ignored, and its right that a woman should choose when and if they have children, its their body but should they be paid the same as a colleague who hasnt taken a year break regardless of gender, if anyone knows of a comapritive study between women who have had children/not had id be very interesed in that

There is a growing movement that expects a rape allegation to be taken factual and run from the guilty until proven innocent view point which in my mind is unnaceptable in my mind (sorry if thats triggering (not being sarcastic))

Missswatch · 18/12/2016 11:43

Many feminists are also bullies. If you subscribe to the writings of Hoff Summers and Paglia you are bullied into believing that Dworkin and Greer are gospel. Sort of like gaslighting

BertrandRussell · 18/12/2016 11:43

"There is a growing movement that expects a rape allegation to be taken factual and run from the guilty until proven innocent view point which in my mind is unnaceptable in my mind (sorry if thats triggering (not being sarcastic))"

Is there? Where? Links?

InfiniteCurve · 18/12/2016 11:43

I've just searched for Anita Sarkeesian,as I didn't recognise the name.She spoke at the UN about cyber violence against women,which is not at all the same as wanting anti feminist speech to be categorised as hate speech.Unless you are Breitbart,one of the links that came up - but I don't view them as a credible sourceGrin

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