To lol at the feminism threads....

[Hannah4banana]

Seriously are people constantly looking out for a way to be offended first world problems!

But they benefit from a system that rewards men more than women.

It's kind of conspiracy theory stuff - what is the system and who created it ? Who would change it ? Who are you fighting ? Doesn't it boil down to demanding that some men stop other men doing things you don't like to women ? I think the idea that men can be taught to become nicer and we don't need the threat of forced incarceration to stop them using violence to get what they want is naive. I guess from that point of view, I struggle to see how it works as well - we identify "men" as the problem and then demand that men stop men from harming us ?

Just

Re the prison stuff. You have a point there, but let's look at it (I don't know the stats, but these are my first thought responses).

This is one way in which the patriarchy fails men.

Take the example of a man who was told his whole life that boys don't cry. That if someone at school upsets you, you punch him cos he won't do it again... Talking is for wusses. etc. all of which I've heard.

That little boy grows up in a world where the only acceptable emotion are the aggressive ones; anger and violence. And he deals with it "like a man" and then he gets arrested for it and put into prison.

Also, literacy and numeracy rates are lower in the prison population than in the general population because doing well at school has largely been seen as a wussy thing to do in some sections of society and boys (my ex husband included) are derided for doing well at school/reading books/being proud of academic rather than more physical (e.g. sporting) pursuits.

Valuing the physical rather than the intellectual aspects of men means that when they are faced with challenges in the adult world, they are ill equipped with them to deal with them in any other way.

And they deal with it 'like a man' and find themselves in prison for it.

There is within most human beings (in fact perhaps buried deep down within us all) the capacity to enjoy humiliating and subjugating others.

Oh my fucking god. CITATION PLEASE. And if you're thinking of the Milgram experiment, no. Those people were under immense psychological pressure, and even then, only 3% were prepared to inflict the so-called dangerous voltage.

The issue with the gender pay gap is that there still isn't equality of opportunity,there are gendered issues still affecting women.

In many ways, Just, men are just as much victims of the patriarchy as women are. It just manifest differently.

If you're white, male, educated, middle class, wealthy or have the means to become so, or fit that bracket, then you're ok. If you're not, the patriarchy doesn't benefit you directly, but you might benefit indirectly if you fall on the right side (for you) of prejudice against another section of society, or benefit from the structures that are in place if you tick some of the boxes.

Ghost an interesting and I dont doubt a very valid way of looking at it.

Pacific I'm sure that a lot of the women in that position in the dock dont hesitate to use the 'poor me im only a women think of my children' card to the older very patriarchal judges

I agree more men do rape and abuse, because they have more power to do so. Unquestionably. But what is the answer to that? What will have to happen in order for them to stop doing that?

Well, if women were seen as valid human beings in their own right, rather than sexual playthings, that would be a start.

And if rapists were blamed for raping, rather than victims blamed for being drunk/wearing short skirts etc, that would help too.

"Glenda Jackson is small and slight, her face crumpled like an old £5 note."

You're right, no-one would accept a female's looks being criticised. Except they do, every bloody day. This was the first line of an article in the Guardian just this week, referring to an 80 year old former MP: www.theguardian.com/stage/2016/dec/14/glenda-jackson-scary-reputation-never-understood-fear-thing-lear-labour

I wish it were called equality and not feminism.

Feminism was the real, tortuous inequality women stood up to for us to be here today. What we now brand acts of feminism (such as getting angry at being called a girl) is just insulting to its name.

Third wave feminists want freedom without responsibility

It's like MRA bingo

Valuing the physical rather than the intellectual aspects of men means that when they are faced with challenges in the adult world, they are ill equipped with them to deal with them in any other way.

I can't really see how in our digital, post industrial, highly advanced society, built by a patriarchy, you can say that mens intellect is not valued. Intelligent men are revered in our society.

just and you don't think that women doing this is a result of patriarchy? Women doing it doesn't make right; another reason for feminism and equality whereby we, male and female, take equal responsibility for actions.

WellErrr

couldnt disprove it? So i believe thats called derailing by humour

Its like derailing for dummies bingo

JustAnotherPoster00
Oh please Lweji both taken out of the context they were in

That's why I was surprised.
You posted them in that order. The second in reply to the first.
What was your point?

Just don't dismiss it. I work with children and their parents and other professionals and I cringe at some of the messages passed on to children by their parents and other education professionals.

"Boys what are you doing letting those girls carry the heavy books? You should be ashamed of yourselves" (from a female TA)

"Oi, Matthew, you're running like a girl. Come on!" (male teacher)

"If he hits you again, hit him back. That's the way a man deals with it. None of this running to the teacher" (from a mum)

"Son, I've told you, boys don't kiss" (dad to a 5yo boy when he picked him up from school at the end of the day and his son went to kiss him)

It's not an 'interesting way of looking at it', it's what happens. These are the messages children are getting every day. We can't then be surprised that they respond to it.

One more thing. When a woman says something to you and you find yourself responding negatively to it, think about how you'd respond to it differently if it were a man saying it. There will be a difference because, until we each address it, we all do it. That's how internalised it is. You don't need to reveal it, but be honest with yourself.

There's also no shame in reading and educating yourself. We are all born into and brought up in this. Until you challenge it for yourself, it will seem ridiculous and unfair and unnecessary. It did to me too, and I'm a woman.

A wind up surely..

Probably, but there are enough people who do think like this that it merits discussion.

MrsWooster I believe wholeheartedly in equality no matter skin colour, creed or gender for all those that have started flaming me (other than lol at being flamed I could care less) just honestly debating because when I see a valid points like ghosts pp it does make me look at it differently, when I see unequality I will happily call it out and always have done and no im not an MRA a term coined by to try delegitimise an argument in the same way that feminism has been hijacked by a lot of SJW's another term I dont use but valid in this context

Just,when you say Third Wave Feminists want freedom without responsibility what exactly do you mean?

Fanny - feminist talk about more than just being called a girl, maybe if you read some of the threads then you would understand that.

Should the civil rights movement have been called the equal movement and fought for white rights or were they correct when they focused on the problem?

If I have a fire in my living room should I pour water in every room taking it in turns or should I focus on the fire in the living room?

So true Ghost.

Threads like this remind me why I am a feminist and why the world needs feminism.

Oh sorry Lweji not my intention, I'll have to read back probably had another point to make on the hypocrisy and sidetracked, or I think the hypocrisy of it not being called rape instead of sexual assault, having something put inside your body without consent is rape, end of in my opinion

"One comment slightly contrary to the apparently predermined agenda of the thread and I was called an 'idiotic mysoginistic patriarchy lover'"

Gosh, were you? I am sorry! Who said that?

Just,when you say Third Wave Feminists want freedom without responsibility what exactly do you mean?

Someone else beat me to it.

But I don't believe you want to be disproved. You just want to put us angry little feminists in our place. Youve decided we're whining about nothing and you want us to realise how wrong we are. And ain't no one got time fo' that, least of all me.