To gt annoyed when people say about baby girl names...

[ChequeredPasta]

...shouldn't be too 'feminine'.

I enjoy lurking on the baby names thread. It's quite a happy, joyful thread really, people who are excited choosing names for their precious baby.

But what really boils my piss is the people on there who always seem to chime in when someone mentions that they like a name such as Poppy, Felicity, etc and say 'Oh, it's a bit twee and girly. What if they want to become a high court judge?'

Since when did being a female with a female name mean you couldn't become a high court judge?! It smacks of internalised sexism to me.

It reminds me of a time that I observed a (white) colleague asking a pregnant (white) colleague what she was going to call her baby. The pregnant colleague had a black husband. She answered 'Aeshia, we think', and the colleague answered " Oh, I'm not keen on that. It's a bit 'black' isn't it?" The pregnant colleague looked nonplussed, and answered, " Well, she will be black'.

Why do seemingly normal people perpetuate this nonsense?? I presume to call my daughter 'John' in order for her to seemingly have a better chance at becoming a high court judge.

And while we are at it, IMO the only reason that people are keen for their daughters to get a traditionally 'mans' job is because they are much better paid than traditional 'womens' jobs such as nursing, carework and teaching, because female traits and work is so undervalued. You know, because a male banker brings so much more to society than a careworker .

It seems that everything feminine is so devalued. Even the way that people encourage their daughters to play with 'boys things' (science sets, trucks etc), which I obs approve of, but when it comes to dressing a boy in pink, or giving him a 'feminine' name, or encouraging them to play nurses and carers. It's like the worse thing in the world a boy do is to act in a feminine way, and now girls too should be ashamed of their female names, their 'female' way of being, and their fannies. So the answer is to wipe out femaleness, call everybody steve, and destroy anything pink.

And I say this as a female with a non 'feminine' name, a well paid professional 'mans world' job, who loved pink and desperately wanted to be called Felicity as a child.

SO Mumsnet Jury....
WIBU to call my (fictional) 2 daughters and 2 sons as follows:

Delicacy
Kindness
Humility
Femininity

And strongly encourage them (in a tiger mum fashion) to ALL become high court judges to stick two fingers up to these twunts?

Though standard caveat on all virtue names applies - what would their lives be like if their temperament did not match? Of are you hoping that nominative determinism would rule that out?

I work in a school and suspect that the majority of parents who gave their children virtue names are fairly disappointed in how things have turned out.

Purple-

I should have been more clear- the research showed lower scores on the same papers.

People do get marked down for certain names- no other reason.

I know some people have touched on this already but I don't think many people realise who utterly small minded this attitude is too, if not outright racist. Some very ordinary names from other culture seem 'silly' in an English context - if you watched X Factor you'll have heard of Gifty Louise who is originally from Ghana. 'Gifty' is not a typical British name - I could easily imagine her CV being rejected simply because she doesn't fit a very strict mould. Equally I met a Bulgarian man recently called Mariyan.

Judging a person on their name or saying that some names aren't 'suitable' for certain jobs is ridiculous.

""I never understand the mn tradition of giving them one name on the BC and another name to use everyday"

Since when has this been a "Mumsnet tradition"?

It was pretty universal, and how naming worked until, I reckon about 20 years ago.

I have a long name with lots of nickname potentials and love it. I can use different versions of it to fit in in different places. I've given DS a similar sort of name. It's quite common to give a long name and use the abbreviation, not just on Mumsnet!

I don't understand why people name children shortened versions of a standard name ie Katy instead of Katherine, Jamie instead of James, Abbie instead of Abigail.
Give your offspring the full standard name, let the name evolve with them during their lifetime (Jamie is hardly suitable for a 70 year old!)

I don't think a name affects you becoming a high court Judge, I know plenty of them and some have some really strange names, I think the selection process realises that you don't choose your name your parents do. Incidentally there are more Judges and QC's with the name Nicholas, give your child a fighting chance!

'I don't understand why people name children shortened versions of a standard name ie Katy instead of Katherine, Jamie instead of James, Abbie instead of Abigail.
Give your offspring the full standard name, let the name evolve with them during their lifetime (Jamie is hardly suitable for a 70 year old!)'

Because they like them? I am absolutely baffled by your assertion that Jamie isn't 'suitable' for a 70 year old. What on earth do you mean?? Are older people required to have certain names?

There have been various sociological experiments where researchers have applied for all sorts of things including mortgages, jobs, rental accommodation using different names but all the same details in terms of qualifications etc. etc. and discovered that there absolutely is very clear bias based on names (presumably the inferences people in powerful positions make based solely on a name). This is a reference to an American one looking at racially distinctive names but its a well researched area:

"Using racially distinctive names to signal the race of applicants, the researchers mailed out resumes to more than 1,300 employers in Chicago and Boston, targeting job ads for sales, administrative support, and clerical and customer-services positions. The results of their study indicate that White-sounding names were 50% more likely"

The quotation is from this Harvard University paper , which also discusses other similar field research.

oops cut off the end of the quotation "50% more likely to elicit positive responses from employers relative to equally qualified applicants
with “Black” names (9.7% vs. 6.5%)"

Presumably the bias towards particular names is why they're taken off exams and on some job applications. The response to stuff like this shouldn't be to pick from names that we hope won't set off someone's prejudices.

It's quite common to give a long name and use the abbreviation, not just on Mumsnet!

Of course it's not just on MN, but we hear (read) of it more online.

I don't come across many people in RL asking the question I really like the short name/nickname X, what would be a good full name I can use to put on a BC?

I understand the need for options but really, when children become adults they can call themselves whatever they like.
Most people I know pick a name they like as a starting point, not choose a shortened version of the name and work backwards. But that's a whole other thread!

I think they shouldn't be about 100 years old - names like Edith or Agatha. Hilariously, the modern Edith becomes Edie almost immediately. And what about the people who trawl graveyards for "original" names. Hahaha

Frankly I would rather be Chardonnay or Demi than Edith!

How many men are on their birth certificates as Andy, Jim, Dave, Chris, Will, Rob, Matt? Shortening names is hardly an internet phenomenon. Only creature here known by their full name here is the cat :)

In the spirit of other posts, it doesn't seem to have held Edith Bowman back.........

I haven't seen objections to names being too feminine.

I've seen objections to names as being too cutesy/babyish and hence limiting their options as an adult. I do understand this objection.

There are lots of names which historically have only been used nicknames, used for a small child or within the family, with the "full name" being used when the person grows up and for official/work purposes. This applies to both boys and girls. For example Daisy, Kitty, Charlie, Timmy, Alfie. Historically these people would have had full given names (Margaret, Catherine, Charles, Timothy, Alfred) which would have been what they used as adults (outside close family) and for work.

Because of this, these nicknames have "childish" associations. So if you call your baby Daisy or Charlie you are giving them a name which will subconsciously make many people think "child". Which may - rightly or wrongly - make it harder for them to get or do a very "grown up" authoritative job such as High Court Judge.

Of course as more people have these nicknames as their full name, and continue to use these names as adults, then the association will change. Daisy will be seen as an adult's name just as much as a child's name. But right now we are in a transition period where the old associations are still around.

Oh I love Edith.

Agatha...not so much

So what should people from other cultures do minipie? Change their 'cutesy' names so they'll be accepted?

I get what you're saying. I think a better way of putting it would be about choosing a name that's versatile. Some names do label you I think - it says something to people about you before you've got to know them. Sad but true. It's sensible imhv to pick something that gives your dc as many options as possible. But I accept not everyone is of that opinion.

I think names like Poppy are fine actually. I personally would probably steer clear of anything that signifies wealth/class rather than femininity, living where I do in a very Conservative area.

I was very relieved to be rid of my surname, that nobody could spell and everybody asked me to repeat three times. I now have a very common name which results in two people standing up at the dentist and Drs sometimes. I love it. Sometimes it's good to be forgotten about. Even friends can't find me on FB by googling. Personally, I think that's good. As potential employers can't form an opinion of me before meeting me.

Something that also bothers me about this thread is the assumption that the person doing the 'choosing' won't actually be a Poppy or a Daisy or a Lily-Mae herself. No, of course not, who ever heard of woman with a silly name choosing anything important!

How many men are on their birth certificates as Andy, Jim, Dave, Chris, Will, Rob, Matt? Shortening names is hardly an internet phenomenon.

And these men also stop using babyish names when they start working. I know of a Rob who used to be Robbie (because his gmail still has Robbie). And there's an Oliver who doesn't like being called Ollie anymore.

So what should people from other cultures do minipie? Change their 'cutesy' names so they'll be accepted?

Pick a more acceptable name? I've said upthread we did it. There's nothing good about calling your child 'Slovenia'. (This is a real one as apparently it's a Bulgarian name )

'Pick a more acceptable name? I've said upthread we did it. There's nothing good about calling your child 'Slovenia'. (This is a real one as apparently it's a Bulgarian name hmm)'

WTF?? So you think people from other cultures shouldn't choose names they like, just names they feel will be acceptable to the country they live in?

"Something that also bothers me about this thread is the assumption that the person doing the 'choosing' won't actually be a Poppy or a Daisy or a Lily-Mae herself. No, of course not, who ever heard of woman with a silly name choosing anything important!"

I think the names you have carefully chosen are actually on the cutesy/non cutesy borderline- and have been around quite a long time-possibly without the hyphen. There won't yet be many Honey-Boos naming children in this country because I would expect most of them to be no older than 12.....

My DC's chinese name is romanised commonly in Hong Kong as Ka-Ching. It's also clearly unacceptable in English. You can google this, I'm not making it up. It's a very common name in HK. Try, for example, 'linkedin ka-ching', and you'll get a lot of hits.