To gt annoyed when people say about baby girl names...

[ChequeredPasta]

...shouldn't be too 'feminine'.

I enjoy lurking on the baby names thread. It's quite a happy, joyful thread really, people who are excited choosing names for their precious baby.

But what really boils my piss is the people on there who always seem to chime in when someone mentions that they like a name such as Poppy, Felicity, etc and say 'Oh, it's a bit twee and girly. What if they want to become a high court judge?'

Since when did being a female with a female name mean you couldn't become a high court judge?! It smacks of internalised sexism to me.

It reminds me of a time that I observed a (white) colleague asking a pregnant (white) colleague what she was going to call her baby. The pregnant colleague had a black husband. She answered 'Aeshia, we think', and the colleague answered " Oh, I'm not keen on that. It's a bit 'black' isn't it?" The pregnant colleague looked nonplussed, and answered, " Well, she will be black'.

Why do seemingly normal people perpetuate this nonsense?? I presume to call my daughter 'John' in order for her to seemingly have a better chance at becoming a high court judge.

And while we are at it, IMO the only reason that people are keen for their daughters to get a traditionally 'mans' job is because they are much better paid than traditional 'womens' jobs such as nursing, carework and teaching, because female traits and work is so undervalued. You know, because a male banker brings so much more to society than a careworker .

It seems that everything feminine is so devalued. Even the way that people encourage their daughters to play with 'boys things' (science sets, trucks etc), which I obs approve of, but when it comes to dressing a boy in pink, or giving him a 'feminine' name, or encouraging them to play nurses and carers. It's like the worse thing in the world a boy do is to act in a feminine way, and now girls too should be ashamed of their female names, their 'female' way of being, and their fannies. So the answer is to wipe out femaleness, call everybody steve, and destroy anything pink.

And I say this as a female with a non 'feminine' name, a well paid professional 'mans world' job, who loved pink and desperately wanted to be called Felicity as a child.

SO Mumsnet Jury....
WIBU to call my (fictional) 2 daughters and 2 sons as follows:

Delicacy
Kindness
Humility
Femininity

And strongly encourage them (in a tiger mum fashion) to ALL become high court judges to stick two fingers up to these twunts?

Just sneak number 4 in..

Small enough to blend it with the other three

I work with some people with quite girlie and twee names. I work remotely so usually know a name before a person. Names do come with impressions of people to be honest but one conversation can quickly lead to a different impression so it's not really a big deal.

The one place it matters is job interviews and maybe school. I remember ages ago some research on kids being treated by teachers based on that teachers impression of their name. It was fascinating and alarming! But we've stress tested (while chatting about possible names) all our kids names against calling them in the supermarket, a job application situation, xx xx heart and thoracic surgeon etc (lighthearted). Because as we had the privilege of choosing the names of people we love most in the world, we didn't want to leave them at any disadvantage, and that includes general bullying by other kids, because of their name.

In so far as possible.

Research has shown that girls with solid traditional names will get higher marks on the same papers/more job interviews than those with names deemed more girly/common.

That discrimination shouldn't exist but it does.

You can try to buck the trend by pushing daisy Mae to being a HCJ but why not make her life easier by calling her Alexandra?

I don't like any name ending in an eeee sound. Male or female.
I also am not employed in one of your 'feminine traits' jobs. Do you consider me a money grabber or unfeminine, I can't decide.
Are GP's being girly by being in a caring role, or is that only nurses? You might be having a complaint about internalised sexism but you've got a hell of a problem with women not fitting into your perceived roles there.

Interesting how we're defining "very feminine" too. Why is Dolly-May more feminine than Margaret?

Could it be that we are falling into the feminine= frilly and cutesy fallacy?

(I was recently operated upon by a Kylie, as much as I'm not a fan of the name I wasn't going to question her skills!)

You can try to buck the trend by pushing daisy Mae to being a HCJ but why not make her life easier by calling her Alexandra?

Because the parents like Daisy-Mae and not Alexandra?

Could it be that we are falling into the feminine= frilly and cutesy fallacy?

Yes, I think so.

Many (in fact, most) girls' names are feminine without sounding like a baby poodle.

I really don't think the 'femininity' of the name is the issue here.

I think a lot of parents, whether naming boys or girls, forget that they are naming a future adult. What sounds cute on a baby sounds ludicrous on a 30 year old professional woman or a 70 year old retiree.

I completely agree. It's why I personally hate the trend of names like Lillie-Mae, Lexie-Rae etc as I think those kind of names would be ludicrous on a 40-something woman and they are very babyish. But perhaps I'm being internally sexist...

'YABVU. People can say what they like in names. I agree with them, I didn't want twee and girlie for my daughter, I wanted strong and powerful names for a woman, not just a cute baby.'

The problem is that 'strong' and 'powerful' is associated with masculine - that's why names that are associated with young girls are considered weak. If all the high court judges were called Daisy Boo and Pixie rather than John and and Andrew then those are the names that would be considered 'strong' and 'powerful.'

Research has shown that girls with solid traditional names will get higher marks on the same papers/more job interviews than those with names deemed more girly/common.

Isn't that easily explained by the fact parents from a higher socio economic background are more likely to choose more traditional names?

Absolutely. Society devalues anything stereotypically feminine - names, colours, traits, activities. How many female high court judges are there anyway? If it's not 50% I doubt it's their names that are stopping them.

My name is common and of it's very short era of popularity but there are politicians etc with it now so I don't think you can say that a name has to be a classic to get you far.

I looked down the list of current High Court Judges. There is a Lucy, and a Bobbie, quite a variation in names actually...

The problem is that 'strong' and 'powerful' is associated with masculine - that's why names that are associated with young girls are considered weak

Nonsense, in this context. Strong and powerful names for girls are things like Matilda, Florence, Sylvia, Ada, Marie. Names of strong and powerful women.

Its names that are more associated with kittens that are weak. People calling their girls Pixie-Boo are devaluing the feminine, not the people who hate those names. We are defending the notion that feminine can be strong and powerful.

Baby cutesy is not feminine. Please stop insulting us all by insisting it is.

'Are GP's being girly by being in a caring role, or is that only nurses? You might be having a complaint about internalised sexism but you've got a hell of a problem with women not fitting into your perceived roles there.'

Wow, talk about missing the point spectacularly.

What the OP was saying that in our society, low-paid caring roles are seen as 'feminine' and therefore less important than more 'masculine' roles like being a banker.

The OP is pointing out that this is wrong and that the caring roles are actually as important or more important and therefore should have the same status.

You might be interested to know that since more women have entered the medical profession its social value as a career has diminished. It always happens that once something starts to be seen as 'feminine' it becomes less valuable, and that's the case here also with names. A name is a name, it should say nothing about the person. You may like or dislike it but it shouldn't hold someone back from achieving what they want to achieve. What people are saying on this thread is that a woman with the name Daisy is likely to be taken less seriously. Why? Because her name makes her seem frilly and girly and frilly and girly things are worthless. Boyish and masculine things on the other hand are worthy.

I think this fits into the category of "Life is going to be hard enough for our children, so why do anything, however small, that might possibly make it even a tiny bit harder?"

My children both have very traditional names-but very cutesy family shoetenings. So you can have Daisy-Mae- just call her Margaret so she has choices.

Raaaaaah That may be the case Head but surely it shouldn't deter people from using names that they like and may be pertinent to their ethnicity. Just because some ignoramous might not offer them a job in the future.

I'm not white but my DH is. We made the decision to pick very English first names for our DCs. I know many choose ethnic first names to go with very obviously English surnames to play up their heritage. We have gone with ethnic middle names. They look clearly non-white, but I don't want them to be judged as different just on a CV, until they get a chance at that interview to show themselves. If they decide when they are older to use their middle names instead, it's up to them.

Therefore I'm with many here on picking traditional full names on their birth certificates.

'Nonsense, in this context. Strong and powerful names for girls are things like Matilda, Florence, Sylvia, Ada, Marie. Names of strong and powerful women.

Its names that are more associated with kittens that are weak. People calling their girls Pixie-Boo are devaluing the feminine, not the people who hate those names. We are defending the notion that feminine can be strong and powerful.'

So do you think that not giving a girl a 'strong' name devalues her?

I would never describe a name as 'girly', but I would describe one as babyish or juvenile. Bitzy, Mitzy, Buddy, Schmoopy, Binkie, Tinky, Codeee, Brodeee, Mickieee, Bobby Rocket Danger Bear.... boy or girl, these names sound perpetually 3 years old, and they would suggest to anyone reading a CV that you had used your silly amongst-friends-only nickname on your CV, rather than being an unfortunate person who is actually named Glitzie Princess Bella Bugsy Wugsy Honey Pie, or Rylee Moose Lionface Gazza Rooney Rover.

I was given a nickname instead of a longer, proper name, and I hate it. I hate having to put a nickname on documentation and applications because I don't want them to think I'm being over-friendly. People don't put "Kitty" or "Diddy" or "Popsy" on a CV even if that's what their mates and mu call them, they just don't, it looks weird. I have to. It sucks.

Felicity's a lovely, and a full name. Poppy, being a flower, is also but the sounds in it are just a bit juvenile. Daisy suffers the same problem, it's just too light and cartoonish. Joke nicknames like Booby Poops and Dinky Minky or MaeMae Bopple Wink... yeah, just no. Save it for cats.

"You might be interested to know that since more women have entered the medical profession its social value as a career has diminished."

This happened in Russia. I remember a Russian doctor telling me in about 1990 that boys no longer wanted to go into medicine because it was now perceived as a "woman's profession"

I never understand the mn tradition of giving them one name on the BC and another name to use everyday.

Why?

Seriously, if there are people out there judging others solely on their name then they are such idiots it would be best to avoid them entirely.

I don't get the overthinking of names. It is a big decision choosing one because you want your child to love it and you want to love it forever. But as fashions change and names come in and out our perceptions change. What seemed like an old persons name is now a baby name. A middle aged name will son be an old persons name. Some will fit a stereotype (probably created by the media) and may be looked up to or down on, and how people perform in life is much more likely to have to do with their ability and their support/background than it is to do with their name. The name might reflect that background but it will not define the person. All very odd.

"Seriously, if there are people out there judging others solely on their name then they are such idiots it would be best to avoid them entirely."

Of course. But subconscious bias happens. I would probably have to make a conscious effort to stop myself deciding what Fifi or Maverick were like if their CVs came over my desk. And lots of other people woildn't even try. So why make life more difficult than it needs to be?