To gt annoyed when people say about baby girl names...

[ChequeredPasta]

...shouldn't be too 'feminine'.

I enjoy lurking on the baby names thread. It's quite a happy, joyful thread really, people who are excited choosing names for their precious baby.

But what really boils my piss is the people on there who always seem to chime in when someone mentions that they like a name such as Poppy, Felicity, etc and say 'Oh, it's a bit twee and girly. What if they want to become a high court judge?'

Since when did being a female with a female name mean you couldn't become a high court judge?! It smacks of internalised sexism to me.

It reminds me of a time that I observed a (white) colleague asking a pregnant (white) colleague what she was going to call her baby. The pregnant colleague had a black husband. She answered 'Aeshia, we think', and the colleague answered " Oh, I'm not keen on that. It's a bit 'black' isn't it?" The pregnant colleague looked nonplussed, and answered, " Well, she will be black'.

Why do seemingly normal people perpetuate this nonsense?? I presume to call my daughter 'John' in order for her to seemingly have a better chance at becoming a high court judge.

And while we are at it, IMO the only reason that people are keen for their daughters to get a traditionally 'mans' job is because they are much better paid than traditional 'womens' jobs such as nursing, carework and teaching, because female traits and work is so undervalued. You know, because a male banker brings so much more to society than a careworker .

It seems that everything feminine is so devalued. Even the way that people encourage their daughters to play with 'boys things' (science sets, trucks etc), which I obs approve of, but when it comes to dressing a boy in pink, or giving him a 'feminine' name, or encouraging them to play nurses and carers. It's like the worse thing in the world a boy do is to act in a feminine way, and now girls too should be ashamed of their female names, their 'female' way of being, and their fannies. So the answer is to wipe out femaleness, call everybody steve, and destroy anything pink.

And I say this as a female with a non 'feminine' name, a well paid professional 'mans world' job, who loved pink and desperately wanted to be called Felicity as a child.

SO Mumsnet Jury....
WIBU to call my (fictional) 2 daughters and 2 sons as follows:

Delicacy
Kindness
Humility
Femininity

And strongly encourage them (in a tiger mum fashion) to ALL become high court judges to stick two fingers up to these twunts?

'Of course. But subconscious bias happens. I would probably have to make a conscious effort to stop myself deciding what Fifi or Maverick were like if their CVs came over my desk. And lots of other people woildn't even try. So why make life more difficult than it needs to be?'

To me, a life where I go around worrying how others will judge me and then change innocuous things like my child's name on that basis is so utterly pointless I couldn't bear it. Is that really how you live?

Headdreamer ...us too, I'm white but an immigrant, DH is Asian. DS has a double barrelled surname which is obviously foreign. His firstname is deliberately very English/European (i.e. Like Alexander one that is easy and recognisable for most of Europe) and fairly 'posh'
I don't want to make life any harder for him than it needs to be.

I do agree with you OP that traditional feminine traits are devalued, I used to work in a nursery and loved it but left because early years is just so badly paid...and I was a graduate in London!

I hate more people whose top criteria for a baby girl's name is that it is "cute". You don't see it as much on MN but is very common on other parenting sites where parents suggest names like Kitty, Dolly, Fifi etc - you'd think they were naming a kitten not a child.

There's no thought put into the child as an adult and what career they may have, the mother is so shallow that all she cares about is "cute".

I'd much rather raise a child who said 'yes that's my name and if you don't like it fuck off' rather than a child who says 'yes my parents named me so I could fit in and not cause a fuss.'

'There's no thought put into the child as an adult and what career they may have, the mother is so shallow that all she cares about is "cute".'

Do you think there are careers for which certain female names are not suitable?

I never understand the mn tradition of giving them one name on the BC and another name to use everyday.

Yeah I don't get this either. My DH has this problem - his bc name is Maximilian. He loathes it. He has always been Max. Always. At work he is Max. He thinks Maximilian is the epitome of poncey.

I'd much rather raise a child who said 'yes that's my name and if you don't like it fuck off' rather than a child who says 'yes my parents named me so I could fit in and not cause a fuss.'

100% this.

My boss's name is a "cutesy" name. Think Poppy but it isn't that.

She's high powered, high earning, v v well respected in her field. She's here because she's tenacious, clever and she doesn't take any shit. That would be the same if her name was Margaret or Elizabeth.

With the cutesy, frilly vs feminine name debate, imo the addition of 'ie' on a name or the change from 'y' endings to 'ai' have a lot to answer for.

"I'd much rather raise a child who said 'yes that's my name and if you don't like it fuck off' rather than a child who says 'yes my parents named me so I could fit in and not cause a fuss."

Well, so would many of us. You're sure you're going to be able to achieve this?

Why is Marie a strong name but Rosie, Daisy and Maisie are babyish?

Irl the only people calling their kids Diddums Fluffy Bunny are celebrities.

Is Jayden or Mohammed anymore likely to be a high court judge than Daisy May? Should we stick to disciple names and main royal family names for everyone or will something else just be used to discriminate against anyone who's not a white, middle class male?

I never understand the mn tradition of giving them one name on the BC and another name to use everyday

^^ This.

I don't see how you can ever hope to raise a truly confident child if your first thought is to give them a name based on what might or might not be accepted by people they haven't yet met. It's the ultimate in instilling a lack of self esteem IMO - I will give you a name based on potential bullying!

'Well, so would many of us. You're sure you're going to be able to achieve this?'

No, I'm not, my children will be who they will be. But I can at least try, rather than giving up before they're even born!

Not my first though. Nor even my 400th. But hyperbolise all you want.

For the name Maximilian, maybe the parents like it? I know a Matt from work who loathes being called Matthew. He kicked up a fuss when he got assigned matthew in his email address. (IT changed it to Matt). But how is a parent to know the kid will grow up to hate Matthew but there are lots of others who go by the full long version?

'Not my first though. Nor even my 400th. But hyperbolise all you want.'

I'm not sure what you're referring to here?

I'm completely with you on your point about tasks and roles: we don't teach Brownies to sew any more because it's seen as too girly and yet we are all stunned that none of the parents can sew on a button. No wonder we are such a consumerist society when nothing can be repaired. Everyone should learn the basics of looking after oneself and ones' possessions.
On names: I chose classic girls' names for my DC. Not filly or floral but obviously feminine. This has backfired spectacularly now DC1 is a non-binary teen who has changed their name into something neither male nor female but hideous on any and all levels. With hindsight I do wish I'd chosen something less obviously girly, then they wouldn't have felt the need to change it.

"I never understand the mn tradition of giving them one name on the BC and another name to use everyday"

It's not exactly a Mn tradition, it's a way of naming that is common in RL so of course gets mentioned here. The rationale is that it gives the DC options for their future appellation without necessarily changing their name. A name like Alexandra has lots of nn potential, and the family might use one as everyday name right from the off, and although IME most people do stick with the name their families call them as preferred nn, there's scope to change if they don't actually like it much (or it here days f they want a slightly different name for online esp dating, but still want it to tie in with their real one)

DD went to a function at the start of the school year where she met with teams from other schools. The girls were named amongst others Tilly, Millie, Daisy, Lily, Mollie, and I think there was another Tilly in there somewhere.
DD was tickled by this. Not unlike a scene from the film Chalet Girl (if you've seen it you'll know why )

Felicity isn't cutesy really is it - it's a "value" name, although I suppose less earnest than Faith and Hope...

I dislike the name Poppy because poppies have all sorts of symbolism I wouldn't want to tag onto my baby or child - the poppy is incredibly short lived and used as a symbol of bloodshed and the mass slaughter in the world wars... Nothing to do with it being feminine, more the huge reminder of mortality and lives cut short!

The real topic is the devaluing of things traditionally associated with women and girls in favour of things traditionally associated with men and boys and I agree with you. I have long felt the Feminist fight should be about not gendering things at all - not reinforcing the over valuing of all things labelled "masculine" by shoving girls in the direction of "boys" toys, "boys" subjects, "boys" names, "mens" jobs and tacitly agreeing anything associated with the male gender is better (people who are "ambitious" for their daughters and believe "ambitious" means "want them to succeed in traditionally male areas and feel embarrassed if they are good at anything traditionally labelled feminine" never seem to push their sons towards needlework, cookery, dolls, home economics, literature and MFL and a career in child care strangely )

It's not just girl's names that would sound ridiculous on a judge, Benny and Tommy would be equally silly. Cutsy names are great on children but not so good on adults that want to be taken seriously in the adult world. Maybe the adult world needs to change, but that's a pipe dream.

The thing about Benny and Tommy though is that they can grow up and become Tom and Ben. Daisy and Poppy on the other hand are a bit fucked.

I named my DC on the basis that they might grow up to be a high court judge or a rock star. Giving a baby a name that's really only suitable for a small child shows such a lack of forethought. Oh, and "unusual" spellings tend to give the impression that the poor kid's parents are illiterate.

Boys and girls names can be twee. The pint is a cute twee name for a baby can be silly on an adult

It's like calling your baby Artie. That's all very sweet. But calling them Arthur gives the option of being Arthur, Artie, Art depending on preference in life

A girl called Posie might feel ridiculous saying name if they are a toy boy teenager. Naming Josephine means they can be Josephine, josie, jojo, jo, posie etc. Swapping and changing if they need to through life

'Maybe the adult world needs to change, but that's a pipe dream.' We are the adults FFS! Who's going to change it if not us???

There is a journalist called Daisy McAndrew. She managed to overcome the cutsyness of her name and be successful. I admit though the first time I saw her on television doing a report I did snort at the image of "Daisy" in a warzone. I'm clearly indoctrinated.