Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think you should only be given an Oscar for the female actor if you are female?

173 replies

amispartacus · 10/12/2016 14:40

Or at least you've had surgery 'down there'?

And not just because you're gender fluid?

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/oscars-2017-history-made-as-academy-considers-rupauls-drag-race-contestant-kelly-mantle-best-actor-a7466981.html

Kelly Mantle is a drag artist. Fair enough. Not the first male to do drag and not the first actor to play 'drag' in films - cue Tootsie and all that.

But to be up for an award in the male AND female actor award?

OP posts:
FloraFox · 10/12/2016 17:43

The reason for the women's awards is because the academy would vote for men over women in every category.

BowieFanMk2 · 10/12/2016 17:45

That may be true, but I still don't get why it's an issue if a trans actor is eligible for both categories.

Personally, considering this is such a left-wing progressive site, I'm quite amazed that there are people saying that MTF trans people aren't real women. Sigh - long way to go I see!

Original poster
amispartacus · 10/12/2016 17:46

The reason for the women's awards is because the academy would vote for men over women in every category

Hence the #whitesowhite issue with the Oscars.

I do struggle with genderfluid. How do you live your life if you are gender fluid? Is it different to how most people live their life? Don't most people want to be treated as people rather than as 'a gender?'

OP posts:
SpeakNoWords · 10/12/2016 17:47

I don't understand how it is fair and reasonable to be submitted twice for the same role, because of how you feel.

TheMortificadosDragon · 10/12/2016 17:47

Because a lot of us can't be doing with misogyny, in whatever form it takes. Because quite a lot of us think gender stereotypes need demolishing, not reifying.

Yes, there's still a long way to go for women.

Original poster
amispartacus · 10/12/2016 17:47

That may be true, but I still don't get why it's an issue if a trans actor is eligible for both categories

I'm quite amazed that there are people saying that MTF trans people aren't real women

But he's not MTF. He's gender fluid. No surgery. No hormones. Just gender fluid. What does that mean?

OP posts:
FloraFox · 10/12/2016 17:52

Yes it will be a cold day in hell before I think that being female is a feeling in a man's head. I don't see what's left wing or progressive about that.

Original poster
amispartacus · 10/12/2016 17:53

Yes it will be a cold day in hell before I think that being female is a feeling in a man's head

Don't forget that they can feel male the next day. Or feel neither.

OP posts:
BowieFanMk2 · 10/12/2016 17:54

Personally, I just let people be what they want to be. If I wake up tomorrow and say I'm a man, why is it anybody's business to say otherwise?

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/12/2016 17:55

Personally, considering this is such a left-wing progressive site, I'm quite amazed that there are people saying that MTF trans people aren't real women. Sigh - long way to go I see!

Some of us are so left-wing progressive with our radfem bad selves that we went through that and out the other side to the cool, calm waters of, 'gender is imaginary and restrictive, sex is an actual characteristic, used to oppress women'. You know, real life not First World bullshittery.

Original poster
amispartacus · 10/12/2016 17:57

I also just don't get drag. What is a drag artist supposed to be? Why are they mainly linked with gay clubs?

OP posts:
hazeyjane · 10/12/2016 17:57

Personally, considering this is such a left-wing progressive site, I'm quite amazed that there are people saying that MTF trans people aren't real women. Sigh - long way to go I see!

What the fuck has it got to do with being left wing.

A transwoman is a transwomen. Someone who wishes to identify as neither a man or woman is genderfluid (as this actor is) Neither of these are women.

hazeyjane · 10/12/2016 18:01

That may be true, but I still don't get why it's an issue if a trans actor is eligible for both categories

Well I would imagine a woman will miss out on a nomination due to a man receiving a nomination, who is already being nominated.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 10/12/2016 18:01

Personally, considering this is such a left-wing progressive site, I'm quite amazed that there are people saying that MTF trans people aren't real women

OK, but what makes a "real woman" then?

If I wake up tomorrow and say I'm a man, why is it anybody's business to say otherwise?

Cultural appropriation quite rightly enrages people, so why not sex appropriation?

It really starts being people's business when you muscle in on what is exclusively theirs because of a feeling (most of the time of which is a stereotype) you have in your head, or even worse, their safe space. Some rape crisis centres and women's refuges accept MTT people where there's vulnerable women who have a very legitimate reason for not wanting to be around men. I don't understand d why people don't see it as a problem

RitchyBestingFace · 10/12/2016 18:03

Personally, considering this is such a left-wing progressive site, I'm quite amazed that there are people saying that MTF trans people aren't real women. Sigh - long way to go I see!

MN isn't a left-wing progressive site and MTF trans aren't real women. Aside from that, good point.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 10/12/2016 18:03

I am always amazed by people who think denying biological reality is progressive. It's not - it's neoliberal and the consequences are REgressive for women because it involves the removal of rights from us.

BowieFanMk2 · 10/12/2016 18:06

CherryChasingDotMuncher

Well, if you've gone through the actual operation to become a different gender, and that's what you identify as, I don't see how that person is not a real woman/man etc. In fact, I work with a lovely lady and have done for 10 years and only 6 months ago did I find out she was born as a boy. I never had a clue. She is no less a woman in my eyes.

BowieFanMk2 · 10/12/2016 18:07

hazeyjane

But that wouldn't happen because you can only be nominated once for a role. So they'd be eligible for both categories but if they actually got nominated, it'd be in one category. No woman would be losing out on a position.

Original poster
amispartacus · 10/12/2016 18:10

Well, if you've gone through the actual operation to become a different gender, and that's what you identify as, I don't see how that person is not a real woman/man etc

What about someone who hasn't done that stuff? Who doesn't take hormones or wants surgery? Such as this person who says they are genderfluid? Gender fluid is NOT male or female. It's gender fluid. I live with DS and do all the jobs in the house, on the car, work etc. Right now I am wearing jeans and a jumper and am watching football. And I am cooking tea.

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 10/12/2016 18:10

As no one is a living stereotype, surely we're all gender fluid? I'm female but, like so many women, have quite a number of qualities often considered masculine. Gender fluid doesn't really mean anything, afaics.

TheMortificadosDragon · 10/12/2016 18:12

but if they actually got nominated, it'd be in one category. No woman would be losing out on a position.

Depending on which (if either, I've not seen the film ) he was nominated for. And because all things trans are so trendy and historic at the moment, which would you bet on?

Re people like your workmate - who were in the past termed 'transsexual' rather than this ridiculous, meaningless 'transgender' - opinions vary, on this particular issue I'd be ok with the stance in the first line of the OP.

Original poster
amispartacus · 10/12/2016 18:12

As no one is a living stereotype, surely we're all gender fluid

Exactly. When people say they are gender fluid, I don't know what that is supposed to mean. I get 'transsexual' - a feeling of being trapped in the wrong body. I don't get gender fluid.

OP posts:
PeteSwotatoes · 10/12/2016 18:13

You can't become the other sex by operation, you just look something like the opposite sex. It is a costume.

hazeyjane · 10/12/2016 18:14

The Actors Branch of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences confirmed that Mantle was eligible to take home the statue in either the best supporting actor or actress categories if nominated......am I misunderstanding? I thought the idea was it had never happened before (hence the 'making history' stuff) but they could stand in both categories?

KimmySchmidtsSmile · 10/12/2016 18:16

except if they were nominated in the female rather^ than the male category. So for example if Eddie Izzard was submitted in both categories (have seen him act, could happenWink) and actually received the nomination for best female. You could argue he nicked Streep's 1000th nom. Or Miley Cyrus (have seen her act, less likely to happen Grin) was put forward for both and got best male nom.
But very unlikely to happen. The Oscar board went with both categories as an easy win to counteract #sowhatever accusations. In a tual fact it was only two years ago that actor reminder lists were divided by sex anyway, hitherto it was just a huge long lists of prospective acting award submissions.