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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Increasing someone's pay because of benefit cuts

177 replies

buckingfrolicks · 08/12/2016 18:43

My company employs a small number of people, all paid well above the living wage and in line with SE England national averages for the jobs.

One person has 4 children all at school and a spouse who doesn't work.

This person has asked for a pay rise because their family has had a significant (several hundreds) cut in benefits as per the Government changes.

This person has asked for a pay increase as a direct result.

Would it be unreasonable to say no? The employee is a good worker and not one we would want to lose. However, no one is irreplaceable!
If the job had, say, an increase of 6K a year (what the person is asking for), then we would be able to recruit someone on that salary with more experience, qualifications and skill, than the current post holder.

As an employer we are generally left of centre and in favour of supporting people, including our employers - we aim to be a good employer and keep good staff.

So WIBU to say no to a pay increase?

OP posts:
PenguinsandPebbles · 09/12/2016 01:14

darknanny this person is not on a minimum wage.

They have four children and partner who does not work. They earn £25k plus bonuses a year, they are asking for a £6k pay increase.

It is not the business owners responsibility to fund their employees shortfall of benefits.

EveOnline2016 · 09/12/2016 01:21

I'm saving for a dream holiday, can I have a rise to.

DarkNanny · 09/12/2016 01:27

it doesn't matter how many children they have or what their partner does that's not really relevant, what is important is that they get a good living wage... to me that would seem fair enough at 25 k this then becomes an issue of living within your means so perhaps you should suggest they see a debt counsellor unless you think that a wage increase is fair enough ? Although it is frustrating to think at 25k you still need benefits to survive there is clearly summit wrong somewhere

Ldnmum2015 · 09/12/2016 01:41

Personally I find it still shocking that people being paid 'the living wage' which is supposed to be fair, yet still have to rely on benefits, 25k is not that big a wage when you are bringing up kids, which I believe is a high percentage of the work force. The fact she has to rely on benefits proves you aren't paying her enough. But to be fair most employers don't as they know full well the only reason staff can afford to work is because the government tops up their wages. I also disagree lots of staff are actually really hard to replace, its a lot of hassle recruiting, and training up and if the government continues capping then few job hunters are going to apply for wages that aren't sufficient to live on.

ClopySow · 09/12/2016 01:47

I've lost £140 a month tax credits this year with no change of circumstances. At the same time, my ex moved away after having the kids 3 days a week. Im fucking skint. At no point have I expected a pay rise.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 09/12/2016 01:58

Personal life and circumstances are exactly that at work when it comes to salary and benefits and should be disregarded. Benefits are not an employer's business unless they suspect fraud.

You pay for the job always with one exception: when there is literally only one person who can do that job/be trained to do the job. Then you pay them whatever they want or you restructure so the post doesn't exisit. Those sorts of jobs are like hens teeth - think Governor of the Bank of England, England football manager, Head of the IMF or UN Secretary General. Not "paid well above the living wage and in line with SE England national averages" roles.

In the circumstances you describe I can't believe you're even asking this really. It smacks of the nonsense of men getting pay rises when they married or had a family in the 1960s Hmm

Ldnmum2015 · 09/12/2016 02:02

Put it this way, when I job hunted about ten years ago, the woman at the job centre made me calculate what I needed to live on, rent, bills, transport, childcare etc, and so I only applied for jobs that were over 28k, but the next time I had to job hunt, about 4 years ago, I was advised by a new reformed job centre advisor to just go for anything as I would be entitled to top ups. My point being that in 10 years wages have remained the same or even lowered, employers know that they will still get candidates, thanks to top ups and before we know it, it has become the norm, you have an employee who needs to ask for a pay rise, because now they have had the life line reduced they need to seek out better pay and conditions, I think in terms of inflation and cost of living 31k or above is about the norm for a person to live on without having to rely on benefits.

Rainbowqueeen · 09/12/2016 02:03

Are you willing to give all your employees the same percentage pay increase??

Because if I worked for you and you didn't then I would start looking for another job/ be less inclined to go the extra mile for you. It's not as simple as saying how much do you value this one employee, if the work force is close, the news is likely to get out and your other employees will probably not be happy. You need to consider how much you value them as well.

I would not do it in your position simply because I don't think that is a good enough reason for a pay increase and they clearly have other options available to them

Ldnmum2015 · 09/12/2016 02:05

Clopysow just because you haven't got the confidence to ask for a pay rise don't knock someone who has.

PenguinsandPebbles · 09/12/2016 03:29

Personally I find it still shocking that people being paid 'the living wage' which is supposed to be fair, yet still have to rely on benefits, 25k is not that big a wage when you are bringing up kids, which I believe is a high percentage of the work force. The fact she has to rely on benefits proves you aren't paying her enough.

The OP is not paying this person to have a family or a non working spouse.

She is paying them to do a job.

By this logic if I was a single woman with no family with the exact same qualifications and experience as Brian who has a family of four children, and a wife who stays at home I would be paid less.

ClopySow · 09/12/2016 05:46

Ldnmum where did I knock anyone?

My point was that my role and my personal circumstances are unrelated. I will get a pay rise when i pass exams, not when i'm skint. My last pay rise was significant - when i gained my last qualification.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 09/12/2016 06:03

The benefit cap isn't applicable to in work claimants

^ this.

They are playing you.

They want a 6k pay rise? Would they be saying they will let take a 6k pay cut if their benefits went up.

We aren't talking a small amount here. You are talking hundreds of ponds a month which you will also have to pay to everyone else and not just those in the same role everyone.

Rubyslippers7780 · 09/12/2016 06:14

If I worked for you and my colleague was getting that pay rise and I was not ( same job, responsibilities, duties etc ) I would leave. All employees should be treated equally or you are setting some weird precident. What if next month another employee says they need xx extra a month because of xx and you say no? You need to treat the 'posts' the same - if this person left would the next employee get the new or the old rate of pay?

purplefizz26 · 09/12/2016 06:38

Not your responsibility to top up their salary to make up for so called lost benefits.

I would be very pissed off if I found out a colleague got a rise like that and nobody else did. Rises should be performance related, recognise someone had been promoted or altered to match the living/minimum wage. Not just because the employee has had benefits cut,

The DP should get a job? The employer should go and find a better paid job? Get a second job?

Sounds tough but it really is not your problem, and could cause you problems if other staff got wind of it and everyone started asking and expecting. How would you justify one and not another?

StealthPolarBear · 09/12/2016 06:45

People have some strange expectations. There's no law that says you have to pay two people doing the same job exactly the same salary, and in fact the reverse is incredibly common.

StealthPolarBear · 09/12/2016 06:49

X posted with last post, I agree

gingerh4ir · 09/12/2016 06:51

I wouldn't. I cannot quiet believe that the cuts amounted to £700/months. we get DLA and tax credits and had some fall but nowhere near that much. everybody's situation is different but the 6k seems excessive given that the benefits cap doesn't apply to in work claimants.

And if someone decides to have 4 children, then to some extent it is the parents responsibly to make sure they can afford a living. having a Sahp is a luxury in that case. I work 5 days despite one of my children being severely disabled (and DH's wage cannot support us all). it would never occur to me to ask DH's employer to give him a very substantial pay rise to fund my lifestyle choice (lots of DC and not working).

I am quite gobsmacked really. and as PP say, a payrise would reduce benefits further .

topcat2014 · 09/12/2016 06:56

I love the idea that there needs to be some kind of 'fairness' over-ride here.

Having worked in private sector industries for 20 years, I can assure you that doesn't necessarily apply. (Finance Director).

The motto is if you don't ask you don't get.

£25k is not even the national average wage - so don't flatter yourself OP that you are doing some kind of favour paying that rate.

You need to look at what competitors are paying - after all, that is what you would need to pay if this person left.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 09/12/2016 07:01

£25k is not even the national average wage - so don't flatter yourself OP that you are doing some kind of favour paying that rate.

Well it depends what the job is and where in the country doesn't it. It could be a very good wage for that job already. you seem to assume it isn't

Rainbowshine · 09/12/2016 07:09

Where I work (in HR) any pay changes have to be authorised and documentation to justify the increase need submitting for auditing. The situation you have described would not satisfy the auditors, and I cannot see a business reason for you to provide such a significant increase. The only time in my 20 odd years experience of giving this kind of increase was when someone takes on a new job with greater responsibility. I would signpost the employee to external organisations that could help them instead.

TheNaze73 · 09/12/2016 07:36

Cheeky bastards. I'd give a request like this short thrift.

Amazed at the audacity of some people

AwaywiththePixies27 · 09/12/2016 07:47

Surely if they end up with a pay rise their benefits will be cut even more, to fall in line with what she's earning so she's not overpaid? Confused

Sounds like they're having you on if you ask me, also sounds like they could be fiddling the system if they've allegedly had benefits cut whilst also working. Assuming she's already claiming the maximum hence the cut?

Longdistance · 09/12/2016 07:54

They can't afford Christmas and maybe got themselves into debt?

Just an idea...

mamatiger2016 · 09/12/2016 07:58

Another HR person here.

When we're deciding on an initial salary / benefits package for an employee, we look at what skills and experience they can bring to the company. Not what their personal circumstances are.

Pay rises are also given based on performance and increased responsibility. We don't give them just because someone has 'lost a load of benefits'. We would then have to look at increasing everyone's salary!!

When my sister went on mat leave, her company only paid statutory maternity pay so she lost 3/4 of her wage each month. Should her husband have gone to his employer to ask for a £1500 pay rise per month whilst she was on mat leave? No of course not so why should you agree to a pay rise due to someone losing benefits?

OP, you mention bonus structure. Is this something that the person is on target to meet this year which would provide some recompense for them? Also as others have bought up, have they had a pay review in the last few years? As you may not be able to meet the full £6k but if they are due a cost of living increase then that may help but you will have to take the hit on reviewing everyone's salaries, not just theirs.

Shirleyucantbeserious · 09/12/2016 08:00

Well this worker has several choices

Get a new job which pays more
Live according to their income
Tell their spouse to get a job

It was their choice to have 4 kids (obviously expecting the rest of us to pay for them).

How unfair to the workers that do a similar role but live within their means to consider this! Tell the cheeky git to jog on