To think burlesque IS empowering?

[Neverknowing]

Following on from the 'burlesque' thread, I want to ask peoples opinion on burlesque I think if a woman is getting paid to do something they enjoy and they feel empowered by it then there's nothing wrong? I have a friend who did burlesque for years and said men and women who went to the shows were always respectful and she loved doing it!
Does anyone have any reasons they think burlesque isn't empowering?

No, klassy. It's not about men. Men aren't the primary burlesque market.

Shall I tell you what is empowering? (Using the word in the building body-confidence sense) Naturism. Yes you are naked, but it is totally non-sexual. You are naked for yourself, for your own comfort, and nobody gives a flying fuck what you look like. Nobody is staring at you, everyone accepts you as you are, whatever size you are, shape you are, age you are, hairy or hairless, whether you have scars or amputations, cellulite etc etc. You realise that you are more than what you look like, and that you don't have to look a certain way to please or appease others. (I realise that naturism may not be for everyone, but I think everyone should try it once, even if 'just' a skinny dip somewhere.)

What I've noticed is that anybody describing anything as empowering is generally talking a load of shit. Whatever it is.

Is paying hockey empowering?
Or making dinner?
What about going for a walk?
Painting your skirting boards?

I don't get it really.

"Normal size woman" lovely? I don't think there's such thing as a normal sized woman I think that's quite offensive... I was picked on for being thin it's just as bad as saying someone's fat! The point is that women come in all shapes and sizes

I don't think confident people need to prove to themselves that they can strip for an audience. That's not really confidence to me.

By 'normal' I meant a range of sizes not just the very conventional size of models who are used in adverts. It wasn't a pejorative comment. We are all normal!

I'm good friends with a professional burlesque dancer, trained in many dance forms. She seems pretty confident to me. Unconfident people don't perform very well.

knickersoftime

I was about to make the very same post. And what is more, she was such a shy girl previously - very low self-esteem, didn't like her body, wouldn't get undressed in front of her husband (I don't think he'd ever seen her naked IIRC) and afterwards her confidence absolutely SOARED. She was MUCH happier about herself and comfortable in her skin.

She was an average looking girl with an average figure - attractive but not model-beautiful - and she developed tons of self-esteem.

It was brilliant! I was thrilled for her, and wished that I'd done something like that in my early life.

Also can people stop commenting about how 'men don't do it' because they do, I've never been to a show without men in it

I've never been to a show with more than one man in it, and the men who do it make a lot more money than the women who do it - go figure!

Oh and a lot of the non headlining women don't get paid at all, unlike the almost exclusively male burlesque photographers and sound people and club owners as mentioned before. Most of the money from the show goes to mostly men and the one woman headliner. Most of the women performers do it just for the "empowering experience"

And stop talking to people who don't agree with you as if they've never seen a burlesqe act, most people have at least been to the freakshow kind with work or hen dos

Do you think male burlesque dancers are straight, or gay?
I can't see many middle aged, overweight, heterosexual males flicking to be "empowered" by becoming a burlesque dancers.

"You don't consider self confidence to be empowering?"

No, of course no!. Totally different qualities. You may decide you want both of them in your life. You might find the possession of one makes the other more attainable for you.

But it doesn't make them even remotely the same thing.

Woo, I'm not stretching her words. That's just how I read it, just like you read it a certain way too.

If the performances Queen has seen come across that way, that's not necessarily a rude description. It just says how she perceives it. Never watched a burlesque show myself (and have no real desire to) so no idea how sincere it all comes across. Clearly it hit a nerve with many people. You may be right. But not necessarily!

Who are the main market then Sheba? I hadn't realised it was women.

It's a shame that women's self-esteem depends so much on looking fuckable
That's not even self-esteem really then, is it? I don't know what it is.
I do know that taking one's clothes off for money or admiration, and having good self-esteem, are not linked in any way, however. Even if one enjoys being admired.

I'm good friends with a professional burlesque dancer, trained in many dance forms. She seems pretty confident to me. Unconfident people don't perform very well.

Yeah the headliners who make money are usually dance-trained (and most of the professional burlesque workers are thin, the bigger ones have to be fricking AMAZING at it to make a career, but in reality they're in the minority). The rest of the show is bulked out with women who do it for free and "empowerment" because they're told that's how you learn to love your body

Yes, I'd like to know too: what 'power' does it give, burlesque?

Body confidence can be found in many activities, maybe even in including burlesque , but this overreaching to 'empowerment'? Really?

Isn't it just another part of the fantasy retro thing?
I love a bit of vintage. I enjoy old movies and dramas set in the 40s. I like vintage clothing etc.
But there is a part of the retro scene I find distasteful. This re-writing of history without the unpleasant bits.
The way the war is reduced to nice clothes and sing alongs. They have fecking 'blitz parties' where people dress up and have a hoot (I am assuming they don't include the misery and devastation, death and maiming).

Burlesque is like that. A golden age of women stripping decorously for adoring men and being respected for it.
Really? So no desperation, no exploitation, no coercion and no links to prostitution, drugs and organised crime?

Burlesque is middle class pole dancing. I have no doubt that there are excellent and talented performers in both professions. That doesn't make it empowering.

Men are paying to see your tits

I can think of a lot of things that gives "body confidence":

mastering a sport, rock climbing, seeing your body physically do something that involves funtion and strength.

Getting a clear bill of health, having energy, feeling healthy

Healing fast/well after a break/op

Growing a baby

Doing a winter without catching a sniffle

"sexy" is a different thing all together to literal "body confidence"

I hate how, when talking about WOMEN'S bodies, body confidence = to do with sexiness

Empowering???? Complete tosh.

Gawd, YES!

I totally agree with both of you, Namechange and Tinsel

It's a shame that women's self-esteem depends so much on looking fuckable

I agree - but so many girls and women are convinced that they are "ugly" and it affects their willingness to socialise and meet other people. From what I remember the girl on "Faking It" went back to being a wife and mother and whatever her job was, but with much more confidence in herself and the ability to enjoy her marital relations better (good for her AND her husband - and therefore for their children.)

But there is a part of the retro scene I find distasteful. This re-writing of history without the unpleasant bits.

Couldn't agree more, I like a victory roll and some red-lippy from time to time, but it boils my piss when people who like the fashion say "I was born in the wrong time, I'ld love to have been a 50s housewife" - OH would you really, you live a bit of marital rape at the hand of a shell-shocked husband then? NIIIIIIICE!

Flappy your friend has been socialised to judge her worth by how others perceive the way she looks. She now finds that other people judge her looks more highly than she thought before and it makes her feel good. That is feeling more comfortable living in patriarchy, not empowerment.