About partners on the ward after childbirth?

[hullabaloo234]

Booked in for ELCS for breech baby.

Just going through this week's post and find a letter from the hospital about what to do/not do prior to the op, what time to arrive etc.

At the back is a letter for my "support person", with a list of do's and don'ts for their stay on the ward with me after my section.

Sorry, WTF?! I love DP dearly but not a chance do I want him or more importantly a load of other blokes on the ward.

I was already going to discharge myself the following morning but was realistic about staying a bit longer if needed- bollocks to that I am definitely leaving as soon as my catheter is out and I can walk again!

Am I the only person who thinks this is really bloody unreasonable?!

That's fine, hyacinth - you let your partner be a cunt, then. Just don't be surprised when someone else decks him/her! Personally, even when I was sky high on morphine and then in a lot of pain, I would still have told DP to STFU if I had seen him being rude to someone else

#that'snicedear. You're obviously a better person than the women with overbearing/creepy partners whose home lives you don't know anything about. Alternatively, on this planet, if you would have been able to do that, you were in a better physical state than plenty of women on the postnatal ward are. That is a fact, whether you like it or not.

But you carry on blaming women for the behaviour of their partners, even when they're ill and/or postoperative. It provides another useful example of why men shouldn't be allowed on the wards 24/7 that I hadn't actually thought of: that when their conduct is poor, as it will inevitably be for some of them because some people are cunts, it won't be the poor dears fault. It'll be the woman with a belly or fanny full of stitches who hasn't slept properly for days.

Just wondered if people would accept the partner of a same sex couple staying? Is it men or the space that another human being takes up that is the problem?

Both, but obviously men are more likely to be violent, be much stronger than the female patients and to have been socialised to think their wants are important and they have a right to take up space. There are some awful stories about people's female family, friends and support persons too though.

Yello I am with you, we need more staff on post natal wards. Having men around just is not the answer for a million reasons.
I'm sure men would not be happy discussing their willies with random women through the curtain. Everybody should have the level of care that Ionacat received. Maybe what we need is a national minimum staffing level policy

YES-this is my point too. It's a satffing problem. When staffing is so low that people need relatives to sleep overnight next to the beds then we have a real problem.

I am vehemently against men staying on post natal wards. Men would never stand for strange women sleeping on the prostate wards for example, would they?. Why the hell should we put up with it? We need a post natal care campaign, not other people's partners sleeping on medical wards like it's Third World.

If it becomes policy nationally, it will put some women off having hospital care for their birth.

I find it an outrage.

I think if visitors are being abusive/violent/threatening then it is for hospital security to deal with. Aggressive relatives are very present on other types of ward too and where I previously worked it wasn't uncommon for security to be called. No one should feel threatened or scared- of a man or a woman.

#that'snicedear. You're obviously a better person than the women with overbearing/creepy partners whose home lives you don't know anything about. Alternatively, on this planet, if you would have been able to do that, you were in a better physical state than plenty of women on the postnatal ward are. That is a fact, whether you like it or not.

You can be a patronising #fuckwit all you like, hyacinth - so long as you are happy that there are helpless little babies who could be left without attention for hours as a consequence of your views. Everyone's entitled to their views. I'm glad that mine aren't yours though.

knits a man who has subdued his partner into silence may not give an opportunity for her to be alone with a member of staff. A woman who has been subdued into silence may not feel comfortable discussing with a member if staff if she knows he will come back at any moment soon. Him being away overnight gives her a few valuable hours.

As for the sledgehammer/nut analogy, most teachers aren't convicted paedophiles. We know that. But we check them anyway to make sure.

If there are helpless little babies left without attention for hours, it's because of the scrotes who vote for politicians who decimate the NHS, not those of us who are able to comprehend that some partners will be dangerous and the women they're visiting aren't necessarily going to be able to prevent that.

Also, it's best not to call people fuckwits when you're so mind bendingly stupid that you think women who have just had crash sections can and should take responsibility for the behaviour of others when they can't even sit up. I mean, even assuming your priorities are utterly warped, basic medical knowledge should tell you why you can't presume that's even going to be a possibility.

Those saying that men shouldn't be allowed 24 hours seem to have the best interests of all women at heart and want a safe place for all women and overall better care
Some are saying that because they can't have their partner there it is not fair that others can (rephrasing)

Those wanting their partners there seem to be just wanting what is best for them and their situation
Some also want what is best for their newborn.

If there are helpless little babies left without attention for hours, it's because of the scrotes who vote for politicians who decimate the NHS
If it is your baby do you hoenstly care who's fault it is at the moment it is happening? Or do you do anything you can to help him, even if it might upset other women?

Jesus Hyacinth, I really hope that you have access to neither a helpless baby nor anyone on a ward. Your way of speaking to people is vile. Let's use simple words and phrases, as you might understand those (I'm not holding my breath though).

Blithering on about people voting for politicians isn't going to help babies being born in the next few days, weeks, months or probably years. That sort of campaigning needs to happen, but in the short term, it's not going to fix things. And frankly, if you are going to have a baby imminently, it's cold comfort to think that sweary rude people on Mumsnet are blaming the politicians for your lack of support.

The thought of women feeling vulnerable is awful. The thought of newborn babies having a horrible welcome to the world and being left in dirty nappies or needing milk or crying for attention is awful. On balance, my view is that the latter is worse.

If you have a partner who is being loud and an arsehole, yes actually, most people are in a state where they can say, "keep it down." For the few that can't, if they are that bad, then the staff will say something. You are making out that everyone is unconscious and has a murderous partner. You are actually diluting your own argument with your hyperbole.

My husband insisted on staying, and I was very greatfull the midwife (only one on my postnatal ward) backed down. He didn't give her much choice though. When they moved me to recovery one of my twins was nursing whilst I was moved (me lying down on my side, epi very much in effect still). They said they would bring my second twin up in the cot but that took them half and hour (with me screaming at them for stealing my baby). They never once answered the buzzer that first night so when my husband came in the next morning and I was rushed off for another blood transfusion he refused to leave. They never once gave me pain relief, so I took my regular prescriptions after oking it with the Dr. We were in a private room, and my husband slept in a chair and bought his own food (and mine, they never brought me a vegatarIan meal once in ten days).

While I was eternally great full he stayed and cared for our babies and me, this isn't the answer. We need better postnatal care. My ward only had one midwife and one nurse each night. That's failure.

I was sexually abused by men and women as a child, so would be no more comfortable with female partners or women's mothers staying. Patients who are equally vulnerable or hcp who (should) be respectful and protective are the only people I could tolerate at night, when more vulnerable, tired, uncomfortable in the dark. I have no difficulty breastfeeding in front of anyone, male or female, but I would be deeply uncomfortable trying to scrape some sleep with visitors staying. Visitors during day time is enough of a challenge whilst still cathtiered/bleeding/hormonal.

If others had partners overnight then I'd feel I would need my husband to keep me safe, so better just give everyone a break overnight.

I'm sure you'll manage fine without your DP there, assuming the ELCS is straightforward. My DH wasn't allowed to stay after any of my 3 sections (2 different hospitals) and it was fine the first two times. However, the recovery after my 3rd section was horrific, a totally different league to the first two. My uterus had ruptured just before they did the section and I nearly passed out trying to get to the loo after they took the catheter out (had no problem doing this before and was previously mobile as soon as the anaesthetic wore off). I remember being in so much pain I couldn't raise my arm to reach the buzzer. So don't assume it'll be straightforward. It would have really helped to have someone there as the MWs were too far away for me to call, and my bed wasn't off the main corridor, so at night, they weren't routinely checking our bay.

On the other hand the partner of the lady in the next bay was the most annoying person I've encountered, constantly clicking his fingers and whistling at his baby like a dog. I felt murderous after 12 hours in the same space as him, unable to move from my bed to escape. Thank goodness partners weren't allowed to stay overnight! So on balance, despite the night of agony when I couldn't get help, I'm still glad partners weren't allowed to stay over.

I appreciate everybody's experience is different, but I was absolutely capable of going home the next day after my recent emcs. All this stuff about 'you won't be able to pick your baby up', you won't be able to reach nipple cream.... not my experience. I do know I'd have hated having strange men on the ward overnight, and have felt pretty daft having my OH sleep in a chair by my bed to hand me some nipple cream occasionally. Some of the, both male and female, visitors, whilst nothing particularly bad, annoyed me enough during visiting hours, constantly pacing up and down and staring whenever my curtains were open, talking down to their partners, bickering with each other constantly....I was always relieved when they had to go home.

For the few that can't, if they are that bad, then the staff will say something.

Which staff, though? If you're on a ward where partners are doing the job of HCAs because the staff aren't answering buzzers, who's going to say something to these men?

In an ideal world nobody would need to have partners on the ward after giving birth, and there would be adequate staffing to allow that.

That's far from the case in many hospitals though. Some of the comments aimed at women who felt they needed support from their partners are bloody awful and completely lacking in compassion or understanding for the experiences some people have had post birth. Feeling unable to cope alone doesn't make you a selfish git. I can understand why some women fear men - why is it so hard to understand why other women need support and help and can't go home 12 hours after major surgery?

It's all well saying "we should be campaigning for better care" but until such times as we have that it's not surprising that some women will want and need their own supporters. I think that making some bays "partners" and some "No partners" is probably the best solution in the short term. This might mean that a small number of women end up in a bay which isn't their preference but it would be fewer than are in this situation at the moment given that most hospitals only have one option. Given how quickly postnatal wards turn over patients the small number who get the wrong bay could then be priority for the next appropriate space in the correct bay. It's not perfect, but it's probably the pragmatic approach given the current budgetary constraints.

I had a CS with DD, and DH wasn't allowed to stay. I was "lucky" in that the maternity ward was maybe half full on my first night, so they were at least answering when I buzzed but even so, it was a nightmare. I was extremely immobile and the layout of the bay meant I would have to sit up fully then twist 90 degrees to reach DD, then pick up my 8.5lb baby. The spinal took ages to wear off, and strangely wore off upside down (feeling in stomach came back first, legs were dead til the next day...) I couldn't change her, couldn't reach her to comfort her. I was also formula feeding and the hospital only allowed the single use disposable bottles which they provided, but some of the staff would only bring you one at a time so every time DD needed fed that first night I had to buzz, ask for a bottle, wait for ages all whilst she screamed her head off (ELCS baby, no 24hour newborn doziness for me!) and woke everyone else up. I couldn't do anything myself.

And I was better off than some of the other mums - they seemed to respond better to the post c-section mums (more accepting of limitations I guess.) There was a youngish woman in the bed opposite who had a "natural" but horrific birth and was brought in, in the middle of the night, and her partner ordered out. She was terrified, sobbing, in agony, immobile - and ignored.

I can only speak on my own experience whilst staying on a ward that refused partners. My ds was born by cat 1 emergency CS at 1:30am, when we got to the ward at 3am my partner was sent home, due to the rules which the hospital followed.

I personally had an incredibly bad few nights, I was in a 6 bed bay on my own, crying and unable to look after or respond to my son. The first night was the worst as the nurse had left him too far away and I was still unable to walk to reach him, they didn't answer the buzzer and they couldn't hear him crying because the door on the bay was shut. They never gave me a catheter stand so when I did reach him after at least an hour of trying to sit up/ turn in bed myself I had to try change his nappy with one hand. Then the morning came and a nurse/midwife helpfully shouted 'breakfast in the dining room' through a gap in the door. As soon as daylight came nursing shifts changed and the care was amazing, but then I had my partner so it wasn't as necessary and I wasn't as vulnerable. On the second night I wasn't as silly to put my baby down and ended up Co-sleeping, but then a student midwife came and took him out of my bed and put him in the cot not in reach! Then wrote in my notes that I'd co-slept and she was concerned... I felt guilty and thought I'd put my baby in real danger because of my silly exhaustion and immobility.

I did make a complaint to the senior sister after speaking to my mum who is a sister in the same hospital. She allowed my partner to stay with us in a side room as the ward was quiet and apologised for the staff during the night.

I can completely understand why wards allow partners but I can see it from your point of view as well, and I feel for you if you really don't want your partner there.

Not allowing you to close your curtains isn't true, I work in the NHS and every patient is entitled to privacy and a courteous 'is it okay if I enter' at every closed curtain/door. If you want your curtain closed then close it and don't allow anyone to take away your privacy, especially so if there is men around!

My husband insisted on staying, and I was very greatfull the midwife (only one on my postnatal ward) backed down. He didn't give her much choice though.

That's exactly the kind of man that shouldn't be around vulnerable strangers 24/7.

That was my point about Hyacinth's Hyperbole. There is a difference between pushy twats and threatening loud arseholes. If someone is so bad that they are terrifying people, then sooner or later (admittedly later than it should be), the staff will say something. Pushy twats who are not evil or bad or pervy but just loud or selfish should be told to pipe down by their partners. It's not a case of saying that ALL women on the ward are helpless and have abusive partners outside my naice little bubble. It's a case of someone being able to say, "ssssh!"

If we were talking about a different kind of surgery, then I would be disgustingly selfish if I wanted my DP on the ward with me to make my life easier. But as we are talking about my tiny helpless baby needing someone to do things for her in the 24 hours when I wasn't able to do it - sorry, I don't care if that does make me selfish, HER needs are the most important thing as far as I am concerned. And I think most mothers that i know would say the same.

Having two sections isn't going to work as long as the ward is still physically one ward. Just because the unknown men are not right next to me doesn't make it any better. I don't want them in the space at all.

So the trade off is that women who don't want a mixed ward will have to discharge themselves early and go home. That's an acceptable trade off for those who insist their partners are there 24hrs, presumably? And those women who cannot discharge themselves due to medical need will just have to suffer the additional lack of sleep, stress/embarrassment/humiliation and possible mental health issues too.

Exactly Richard. If a men can intimidate midwives into doing what they want, why would I want them spending the night a curtain away from me? Who else might they not back down to? Who else could they potentially intimidate?

I suppose for now, some bays with 24 hour visitors and some without is the best we can hope for, although it's still not perfect. Perfect would be private rooms for all, but that won't happen.

Question for those fully supportive of partners being allowed one the ward 24 hours a day. Would you accept the same if you were on a different ward? For example if you were in for gynaecological problems and had to have numerous chats with doctors about very personal things would you want the partner of the woman in the next bed listening in? Or if you had a broken leg would you need your partner there for support? Or would you accept that, as should be the case, that the staff on the wards would do the job of supporting and looking after?

Staffing is the real problem here. And if it starts being accepted and expected that women on postnatal will have a visitor there to help them, how long before it spreads to other wards, and all patients need a visitor there, or they'll never get fed/cleaned/fresh water?

Don't get me wrong - I had an utterly hideous time post-partum. But while it would have been lovely if I had been able to have my partner there, I would not have wanted the woman opposite's partner there. For every nice bloke, there's a horrible one and probably another woman who isn't able to have anyone to stay for a multitude of reasons.

We need better postnatal care for all women, not just those who are lucky enough to have nice partners who are able to stay for the duration. Imagine if you have a lovely partner and he comes in with you first time. The next time, he has to stay at home to look after your DC. But by now, the expectation is that fathers will stay, saving your CCG millions in staffing costs. Instead of there being limited and patchy support, it will be non-existent as the expectation is that you will bring in your own support person from home. This is what will happen, believe me.

Unfortunately the idea that visitors need to help with certain aspects of care is actually happening right now, I work on a busy Medical Assesment Unit and often elderly men and women have visitors during protective meal times to help the HCA during busy periods. If you have 5 HCA's and 10/15 elderly patients who are unable to feed themselves then needs must! It's either that or Brenda doesn't get her lunch until it's cold. Sometimes relatives have to help and that's the only way that everyone's needs are met on that specific day/time. A long term plan is to get more staff/bigger budgets (of course it is!) but people are suffering right now and action has to be taken quickly some times.

not being allowed to close your curtains isn't true

Do you think that posters on this thread just made that up? Loads of posters here, including me, have said that they weren't allowed to keep their curtains closed. You can say it's not true, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens.

Further upthread a few posters had mentioned that you couldn't imagine relatives being expected to care for patients on other wards, but I'm not sure that's true. Elderly people are routinely left with only their relatives to provide the level of care they need. Staff are unable or unwilling to help with things like washing the patient, helping them eat, changing their pyjamas etc. Those are left to the relatives.

See, I saw it the other way around. I would rather I felt uncomfortable - and believe me, I did on several occasions, especially when a cleaner pulled open my curtains by mistake just as the midwife was showing DP how to extract colostrum from my reluctant burgernips! - than that my newborn baby was left without attention I was unable to give her. It's like choosing between permanent constipation and permanent diarrhoea; both are utterly shit, but one is SLIGHTLY less shit in my opinion.