About partners on the ward after childbirth?

[hullabaloo234]

Booked in for ELCS for breech baby.

Just going through this week's post and find a letter from the hospital about what to do/not do prior to the op, what time to arrive etc.

At the back is a letter for my "support person", with a list of do's and don'ts for their stay on the ward with me after my section.

Sorry, WTF?! I love DP dearly but not a chance do I want him or more importantly a load of other blokes on the ward.

I was already going to discharge myself the following morning but was realistic about staying a bit longer if needed- bollocks to that I am definitely leaving as soon as my catheter is out and I can walk again!

Am I the only person who thinks this is really bloody unreasonable?!

I am saying, they were far more disturbing than the male partners. Someone up thread asked for examples of mothers on the ward being threatening. I suspect if I had been the unfortunate woman who got sworn at for her suitcase slipping beneath a curtain that I would have found that pretty damn threatening! As it was, I found it most unpleasant.

It's also about worse care being the norm because of the expectation that you'll have a partner present to do basic care
I actually found the same sort of set-up on children's ward when DS was 12 (15 years ago).

He had been admitted straight from the doctor's surgery in an emergency and I had none of our things for the overnight stays.

When the nurse told me to call someone to fetch them and I told her that my parents were abroad her attitude was "well you can't leave him so what are you going to do".

In the end another really kind parent sat between two cots for the hour that it took me to go home and get some essentials but I often wonder how single parents with more than one child cope in the same situation.

I think dusty is saying that we should have to put up with shit behaviour just because someone is a patient. Which I find bizarre but there you go!

*Persian. More staff willing to explain the basics to first time mums. How to feed, burp, change a nappy etc. That would have been helpful.

Patients have to be there to be treated. Visitors don't have to be there.

*Persian. More staff willing to explain the basics to first time mums. How to feed, burp, change a nappy etc. That would have been helpful
Yes I can totally understand that and I feel sorry for all women nowadays who leave hospital within 24 hours of giving birth.

Sorry to harp on about DS 17 but when he was born you were allowed to stay in for five days in which time they showed you how to do everything including making up formula bottles.

Even so on day five I still felt totally unprepared so I don't know how women manage especially with a first baby so soon after the birth.

I keep thinking back to that friends episode where Rachel had her baby. The singular private rooms would be what we need to solve pretty much all of this, but of course our NHS is so broken it would never work.

Most probably the type of people you encounter in hospitals also depend on your area you give birth in. It seems the most deprived areas are the the ones in most need of the visiting hours rule as they're probably the most short staffed (I live in the 2nd poorest borough in the country which has a high birth rate and poor post natal care before anyone starts flaming btw).

Judging from everyone's experience it's pot luck how your birth experience goes

Someone up thread asked for examples of mothers on the ward being threatening
Thank you for your example and yes I suspect that most people would have found this quite threatening but I am still waiting for an example of where another mother on a ward actually caused harm to another mother or baby on that ward.

Not everybody gets to stay in a delivery room overnight. Do you really not understand this simple point?!

I have already said I do. I will spell it out again - i believe that private rooms is fine but under no circumstances should a man be staying overnight on a ward with other women. This is quite simple.

Most people are wheeled straight back onto the ward. According to you, at some point on this minute long ride on a bed down the corridor, they magically become selfish for wanting support.

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AGAIN - I didn't say it was selfish to want your partner there. But to not give a flying fuck that having him there means other women will be uncomfortable, distressed or disturbed or have HCP carevtake away fr them, is very selfish. Plenty of people have said they don't care about other women on the ward as long as they get their way

You really seem to expect women to put strangers' needs above their own, and their own babies

I expect patients to come before visitors. I expect patients to respect this. I also don't exp ct that every man is helpful and that many are actually a hindrance to staff, partners and babies. As I said earlier people judge others by their own standards, 'my DH was lovely' so don't accept that other people's arent.

Again, a great example of you not reading what I said. I said, it's the women who had a shit time in labour who wanted their partners there afterwards. Not during. The whole point of this thread is about afterwards!

Ah I see apologies! I don't disagree with you but I still don't think men should be overnight in wards with other women.

I disagree. People know that if their partner can stay, everyone else's partner can stay. They're not stupid. It's a shit situation, but it's the lesser of two evils for lots of people. By painting them all as selfish and men as vile beasts, you risk doing your own cause a great deal of damage.

I shall be ignoring your extrapolations from now on, they're not even clever

It seems the most deprived areas are the the ones in most need of the visiting hours rule as they're probably the most short staffed
But what we don't need is staff being replaced with partners.

Those of you that want partners there 24 hrs, what solution can you think of for women who don't/can't have a partner or another person there?

If you have one staff member to twelve patients (made up numbers, no idea of real maternity ratios) and partners are sent home you each have less than 1/12th of the staff members time. If 9 of those patients have support with them the ones that don't have closer to 1/3 of the staff time.

Surely it's obvious that letting people bring in help (IF we can ensure women's privacy by changing ward setups) will improve ratios for those that don't have anyone?

It's been repeatedly asserted that staff ratios are worse for postnatal than other wards because of partners being allowed to stay, does anyone have any proof of that? Because staff ratios are pretty piss poor on other wards in my experience.

Surely it's obvious that letting people bring in help (IF we can ensure women's privacy by changing ward setups) will improve ratios for those that don't have anyone?
I can see where you are coming from but where does it end??

One day will the NHS say "please bring a helper for the PN ward because we no longer provide HCPs on the ward, however you can telephone one for assistance in an emergency".

Those of you that want partners there 24 hrs, what solution can you think of for women who don't/can't have a partner or another person there? Will they just have to put up with this poor standard of care and be put at risk? Nothing can be done to improve their situation?

I'd also be interested to know this.

persian and cherry

I would agree with many others that the emphasis should be on better care and even treating the after care of women who have given birth as a medical/surgical issue rather than a "no men on ward" issue

I do not want men 24/7 on wards but if it was seen as a where else would a adult non patient be able to stay with an adult patient question then i think a lot less people would accept it

It is the after care and infantilising of women that is the issue here. And before anyone jumps on that i am well aware that this happens to people regardless of sex in the NHS. But this is specifically about giving birth

What would i like to see in the NHS is a more staff who are not medically trained but who could help someone to the loo, or fetch a cup of tea (for the patient) or change a nappy

I would also like on these types of thread to refer to women who have just given birth as patients. Becuase a lot of us , even the ones who had a relatively straightforward birth, are patients.

Havent read the rest of the thread so apologies if someone has already said that.

Will read it now

Nobody has provided any proof that having partners there does reduce the care, though. Like I said, does anyone have any stats to show that hospitals with a partner policy employ fewer midwives, for example? Because at the moment it's just supposition and possibly fearmongering. There are lots of examples on this thread where people had a hard time and wished their partners had been there, however.

Telling people they are selfish to want support at such a time and that they should just think of everyone else is just... Well at best it's naive. At worst it's horrible to make new mothers feel guilty for needing help.

Oh yes and great idea about getting mumsnet involved

Someone asked for instances of women being abusive or dangerous. My last night in hospital (last Wednesday) the police were called and when I went to the nurses' station to ask them to put some expressed milk in the fridge for the next day I overheard (genuinely by accident) the midwives discussing that they'd found marks on the baby. The next hour was full of very frightening shouting as the police got involved and the woman tried to run out of the hospital. I was in a side room (as was the woman in question) as I'd had a c-section and my baby spent several days in the NICU so I didn't witness her abusive behaviour directly.

There was also a mother I'm pretty sure was doing drugs in the public (rather than patient) bathroom. That's supposition based on behaviour though.

So it does happen.

A few wider comments:

If facilitating bonding is not any part of postnatal care then why did we move from the model of night nurseries. Postnatal care IS partly about learning to bond with and care for your baby but the female parent is prioritised in this. Now, there may be unavoidable pragmatic reasons why this is the best compromise available. But if we want to examine this from a feminist perspective I think pointing out the enforcement of women as the primary caregivers even when they are exhausted and will provide a lower level of care than their partners, is at least a valid data point.

With regards to medical care, on other wards you are cared for with regards to your medical needs but not beyond. You will not be hand fed or assisted to the toilet unless there is a medical need. So while we can argue that midwives to help with changing the baby or hand expressing, etc. would be useful (and again may provide a good pragmatic solution to a complex problem) I'm not sure it's accurately described as medical care. My daughter needed IV antibiotics. That was medical care. She also needed her nappy changed, which was not. Partners assisting with these activities are not providing medical care. Perhaps it's care that would be better provided by midwives but it's not medical and suggesting it is shifts the tone of the discussion. It would be inappropriate for my husband to give our baby IV drugs. It is completely appropriate for him to do the nappies when I'm exhausted and in pain.

With regards to issues of safety and privacy. As I said I was given a side room so my husband stayed. But had I been on the ward - perhaps even without a traumatic delivery and sick baby - I honestly think I would have had a mental breakdown. For some women feeling safe means having a loved one to help and not being left with strangers at the most vulnerable point in her life.

I completely understand this need is in opposition to the needs of other women to have a female-only space (or at least such a space for a portion of the day). But ultimately choosing either side damns one group to harrowing emotional and psychological experiences. There are strong feelings on each side becausr giving birth can be fucking terrifying and being thrown into the deep end with an infant while scared and exhausted can be deeply traumatic if you don't have access to that sense of safety.

But calling one side selfish or suggesting that if only they'd had better midwives/if only they'd stop viewing men as threats helps no one and throws a group of women under the bus.

I think the only way to sort this is some kind of attempt to provide both options even if imperfectly sometimes.

What would i like to see in the NHS is a more staff who are not medically trained but who could help someone to the loo, or fetch a cup of tea (for the patient) or change a nappy
Yes I absolutely agree about this, this "helpers" could be allowed to do all of the domestic chores and duties and also be trained to know when exactly someone else needs to be called.

butterflies I don't agree with what you're saying about partners overnight being better for those without partners. I think those partners present could mean that they monopolise the midwives attention because they are able to seek them out and get it. I think it will also mean an expectation of having a partner is created, to the detriment of those without.

You need therapy Cherry! It's not normal to be so paranoid about men and to get so volatile and tell a stranger to fuckoff hmm

I told you to fuck off because you suggested I have MH issues because I don't want to sleep in a room with random men at a vulnerable time in my life. You completely gaslighted me and deserves that insult. You've done it again saying I need therapy. Again, you have no idea what I've been through in my life to make me this way and I won't tell you because you're an unsympathetic cunt who does abused women everywhere a disservice by saying they are paranoid and need therapy because they aren't thrilled at sharing their private space with potentially abusive men.

Seriously go fuck yourself

I didn't witness her abusive behaviour directly
From what you are saying the nurses had put this patient into a side room though where she was well away from the other women and babies.

Making this thread into a man bashing sexism issue only deflects from the true level of shit care the NHS provide

I've asked several times for you to show me my sexist posts. Show me then, before I shuffle off to the therapy i apparently need.

If 9 of those patients have support with them the ones that don't have closer to 1/3 of the staff time.

That only works if every one of the partners is helpful, supportive, and not making life harder for everybody. Which is far from the case. I mentioned the partner of a woman in the next bed to me in a previous post - he wasn't abusive, wasn't threatening, but sucked up SO much midwife/HCA time totally pointlessly.

Plus, some of the care needed can only be provided by medical professionals. If half the women have partners chasing down midwives and asking for/demanding that their partners get seen right now, and the other half are stuck in their beds, who do you think is going to get that support first?

MadsZero - round of applause for a great post. Esp the part about not throwing each other under the bus.

MadsZero, 12 hours a day is plenty of time for partners to bond with their baby, surely?

Health care assistants are what we need more of, I think, to help provide the basic care that midwives shouldn't have to deal with regularly.

I don't think anyone wants to throw anyone else under a bus, but that's what hospitals are doing by choosing to allow partners 24hrs whether women like it or not.