To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

Transwomen are biological men.
Males can not change sex either by hormones or surgical intervention .

It is up to men to expand their views/ bandwidth to welcome those who do not follow normal social gender norms.

It really is that hard to understand .

A Virgin - you misread me. That is where the line should be drawn - YES to toilets NO to communal changing rooms!

I would love a proper definition of transphobia.

And I wish we could stop talking about loos, because they Always seem to be used as a proxy for the problem-and it is much more complex than that.

Can we talk about a scenario that I have just imagined. I visit my very elderly frail mother in a care home and find her in a distressed state. I discover that she has had what is euphemistically called "an accident"- and the care assistant who came to clean her up has a beard and a moustache and is 6'5. Wouldni be transphobic to ask that my mother is not cared for by that person, even if she identifies as a woman?

I have absolutely no problem with trans people taking a full and active part in society- I think it's fantastic that society is gradually becoming more accepting. But sometimes we have a conflict of rights. And at the moment "born women" seem to be losing out. And it feels very much as if transactivists (not transwomen because I think that they are not necessarily the same thing) are bringing their previous male privilege into their new lives as women. And, as women, behaving as men often have by expecting women to shift up and accomodate them.

Should a female rape victim have the right to request that the person who examines them post-rape is a person who is also female - ie, does NOT have a penis?

If you think the answer is YES, she should have that right, then you are a transphobic TERF hateful bigot. Shame on you.

Can you honestly not all imagine how humiliating it must be to be a transwoman and be forced to go and use a men's bathroom? Wearing just a regular, woman's outfit and have to go and walk past men at urinals to use cubicles? You honestly don't think that those people aren't going to get unwanted comments from men? You honestly don't think there are going to be issues? If transwomen were using men's bathrooms just now you would have heard about these incidents. Hint: they're already using the women's.

Horsegirl - how is that helpful?

how about the trans women who have been raped?

They will be able to access the same facilities and support that are available to other male victims of rape.

However I wasn't asking about people seeking support from the services. I was asking about trans women working/volunteering in the centres.

Is it trans phobic for a woman who has been raped not to want to be examined by a trans woman because she wants a female HCP?

Can you honestly not all imagine how humiliating it must be to be a transwoman and be forced to go and use a men's bathroom

Can you honestly not imagine how uncomfortable women must feel when they find men unexpectedly in spaces that they believed were female only?

OP do you see the other point of view now?

MtF will NOT be safe in women's toilets, if they only have to say they're trans to be allowed to go there.

Because in case you didn't think of that: SO CAN ANY FUCKING MALE!

Any man can just identify his way into the women's toilets. Who is to say that he doesn't have womanfeelz, after all?

So, MtF walks into the women's toilet and feels safe ... some random male walks there after him, beats him up, rapes the woman in the next cubicle, leaves.

Who profited from this? No one, except the violent male.

And no security personnel will think of checking what the male is doing in the women's toilet, because questioning his womanfeelz would be transphobic.

And yet someone who uses the word Imbecile is the enlightened one Horsegirl1.

I suggest you un-narrow your own mind before judging anyone else's.

ORIGIN: This word has been around since the 16th century and comes from the Latin, imbecillus, meaning ‘feeble’ (it literally meant ‘without support’ and was originally used mainly in a physical sense). It was similarly defined in the Mental Deficiency Act, as someone incapable of managing their own affairs.

TW who have been raped will almost certainly have different physical needs to women who have been raped.

Women campaigned for, fundraise for and volunteer at rape crisis centres. If facilities are needed for TW then the trans community can do the same. Men didn't magically decide to give up rape crisis centres and DV shelters out of the goodness of their hearts - they are funded and resourced by women's energy.

What TW shouldn't do is insist that we divert these resources to them

and the irony of the risible Spartacus threads being trumpeted as WOMEN SAVING WOMEN on behalf of all women (you don't speak for me, thanks) by insisting that some women aren't women seems to be lost on its champions.

itsall No... Because I honestly couldn't get bothered about it, but it does make me feel awful to think of a woman being forced to use a man's bathroom or changing room. If everyone's concerned about open plan changing rooms then should we also ban lesbians and bisexuals in case they're also getting a look in? Or is it okay for them to see naked women and enjoy it because they don't have a penis?

Vestalvirgin - but there are no security personnel in toilets anyway so it doesn't matter what the "rule" is - nobody is checking!

insisting that some women aren't women seems to be lost on its champions

Eh? Where did you get that idea? Women (adult female human) are women. It doesn't matter if they don't menstruate, or don't have children, or don't wear dresses - they are all women.

letsghostdance but why are you assuming that a trans woman is going to obviously be dressed as a woman?

Women and men dress very similar in every day life IME - jeans, t-shirts, etc so why is it going to automatically be obvious that they are a trans woman?

What does dressing as a woman mean? Apart from the fact that women have more options when it comes to choice of clothes - e.g skirts and dresses - how do women and men dress differently from each other?

Or are you just assuming that woman = a dress and heels?

ghost please stop with your homophobia

It's not about sexuality, it's about sex.

I want to retain sex segregated spaces. Nothing you can say is going to dissuade me from that view.

Because I honestly couldn't get bothered about it, but it does make me feel awful to think of a woman being forced to use a man's bathroom or changing room

But it's ok to force women to allow men into their bathroom/changing rooms?

If everyone's concerned about open plan changing rooms then should we also ban lesbians and bisexuals in case they're also getting a look in? Or is it okay for them to see naked women and enjoy it because they don't have a penis?

Again. Lesbians are female. I'm assuming the bisexuals you are referring to are female. This is irrelevant. This thread is about sex, not sexuality. And the male sex (irrespective of their sexuality, or their views in gender) are a threat to women in a way that other women simply are not.

And it feels very much as if transactivists (not transwomen because I think that they are not necessarily the same thing) are bringing their previous male privilege into their new lives as women.

This.

You do realise that you don't have to wear a dress to be a woman, right? They're not compulsory and plenty of women don't wear dresses at all.

So why would a trans woman automatically be wearing a dress thus obviously dressed as a woman?

🍿 anyone?

This whole "dress like a woman" thing is part of what makes me so uncomfortable, the idea that being a woman is dressing in the way society dictates we should to look "feminine" enough to satisfy it. Also, I've often heard it argued at the Feminist Society at my school that if someone identifies as a woman, they're a woman. I find this questionable to say the least but I'm in quite the minority there.

I have, in the past, told a bouncer in a night club, that there is a man in the ladies loo. The man has then been removed by the bouncers and kicked out of the club.
In the future I will lose that right. Myself, my fellow women, INCLUDING real, genuine, actual, ordinary trans women, will all have that right taken away from us.
We'll all have to put up with that drunk bloke following us in to the loo where we have gone to get away from him because he won't take no for an answer.