To not understand what Laurie Love's Aspergers has to do with his extradition

[Olympiathequeen]

Not an autism bashing thread please.

But he is a political activist. He knew what he was doing and that it was wrong.

If 10 year olds who know the difference between right and wrong can be held criminally responsible why can't he?

He caused damage and expense to the US government so he should pay for it like anyone else.

He may be a suicide risk but so are many people in jail.

Surely his Aspergers is irrelevant?

Why if 10 year olds can be found criminally responsible, should an adult with aspergers not be found to be criminally responsible?

An expert in ASD has already assessed him (Simon Baron Cohen) and gave his evidence in Court but the judge just didn't give a toss really, she agreed with the evidence but decided it doesn't matter because she thinks the US prison system does a good enough job at looking after the vulnerable. I was there when she gave that judgement and the Court was in shock, no one believed she could be that ignorant.

Lauri Love's condition will be unique to him and we can't decide on MN evidence alone what his cognitive abilities are. It is also important that individuals are not able hide behind diagnosis to prevent being found guilty.

However, if he is found guilty, he will be better off in the UK. The US imprison people for years and the fines can be in the millions. At least in the UK he 'might' receive treatment rather than imprisonment.

Thanks for answering my query gutted. I really didn't mean it in a nasty way, so thanks for answering it in the genuine spirit it was asked.

That really makes sense, and I guess with his age it wasn't really known about when he was a child.

In a way, seeing people that have it on the news and on TV (even those just acting for a TV show) raises awareness in a good way, and may help some to realise they have the same traits and could have the same thing.

IM (limited) E of Aspergers I can relate to the pp saying about being easily led/eager to impress without thinking of the consequences at that moment in time.

Although I do think there needs to be consequences, I hope that you get a solution that your family can live with and that doesn't put him at risk.

"An expert in ASD has already assessed him (Simon Baron Cohen) and gave his evidence in Court but the judge just didn't give a toss really, she agreed with the evidence but decided it doesn't matter because she thinks the US prison system does a good enough job at looking after the vulnerable"
Gutted I am so very sorry to hear that. Especially when someone like Baron Cohen has stepped up. She's maybe read this on paper somewhere but I'm not sure she's spent enough time in and around the prisons to know what she's talking about.

Simon baron Cohen is one of the best gutted but unfortunately as I pointed out above my DH often finds judges making the decision that an obviously unwell person is fit to stand trial despite the expert opinion stating otherwise. I suppose it's tough for the judges as well because they have to act as a filter for those who are genuinely unwell and those who are just seeking leniency. In the case of somebody with aspergers it is easy to see how a judge could think he is capable and functioning enough to be accountable even when faced with the opinion of an expert stating otherwise.

10 year olds can be found criminally responsible, but we wouldn't allow a 10 year old to be extradited to the US either.

I agree crashdoll. I hope it all works out for your brother gutted :(

That's ok name I figured you didn't mean it in a nasty way.

There were even experts about the US prison system giving evidence at the hearing but she ignored that. Although possibly she just didn't want the responsibility for this decision so passed it on to Rudd, who either didn't want the responsibility either or was too tied down by the rules to make the decision.

I'm sorry to hear about the expert's advice being ignored. Is there any way to overturn her decision not to take it into account?

Ftr: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen

I'm so sorry for your brother, gutted, I heard him on the radio this morning and he sounded very scared, however I thought he did very well in standing up to some awful interviewing tactics. Sometimes I think these interviewers forget who they are interviewing, it's fine to be robust with a politician, but not with a vulnerable person.

There's still the chance of appeal, and if that fails then the European Court of Human Rights. Its just the whole process is so stressful to us all in the family, Lauri's skin is terrible right now, black in places because of infection that won't shift, and my parents are devastated. And I feel useless because I can't do anything to help.

name2 I'm mid 40s and only when my dc was diagnosed with ASD did it become apparent that I have very strong traits. I'm being assessed at the moment. It's very easy for High Functioning people to go under the radar. We do well at school. We hold out issues in, suffering anxiety and depression etc. We're often nice quiet stay at homes baffled by the rest of the world.
Only when something goes very wrong does it become obvious that we aren't just a 'bit different'.

As many other PPs have said (but it bears repeating and repeating), the US's sentences for this are inhumane and awful and unjust. There is a case against extradition on those grounds, autism or not.

OP, this thread makes you look really, really bad.

"To be deemed responsible for a criminal act implies that the perpetrator must understand what they are doing and that it is wrong."

www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/british-age-of-criminal-responsibility/

Attempts to cover tracks are usually taken to mean that the individual does understand what they are doing and that it is wrong.

I don't think the thread makes OP look bad. She is taking on board all the opinions (that aren't just random pissiness) and Gutted is happy for the discussion to take place.

I agree extradition is not suitable and trial and sentence in the UK is.

The extradition rules as currently exist with the US should not be there for anyone. Nobody should be extradited just because the US demand it.

I don't think he should be extradited but if convicted here; people are sadly mistaken to think he'll get better care in a UK prison.

The prison service is on its knees and it's going to get worse.

I think the blind and stupid comment is quite bad given the context of the subject
We've been asked not to report or be confrontational though
So
No Olympia, aspergers doesn't cause a visual impairment but it is considered a cognitive disorder.

But can't people also be extradited to the UK from other countries to stand trial bratsy? I think reciprocal extradition laws are very important in order to prevent somebody commuting a crime in a country and then simply fleeing overseas before he can be caught. Like in the case of the ex eastenders actress and her children who were killed by her partner who Jen fled to Africa but was extradited back here. I'm not saying that extradition is right in Lauries case but I do think reciprocal extradition agreements are hugely important.

I wholeheartedly agree, holly, and would also add really, really, ill-informed.

I'm very sorry you've had to counter unreasoning prejudice against your db here, gutted, but I hope the thread will stand and serve to raise awareness of what your family are going through.

There is no way we should be extraditing anybody to the US without evidence, just on their say so. If a crime was committed it was on British soil, and should be tried as such. The US should have no jurisdiction here.

Gutted, I'm sorry for the way the justice system is treating your family, I hope things go your way.

Thing is OP you believe a raft of things that people with knowledge of autism have told you may not necessarily be true. Laurie's own sister has painted a picture of his ability level - unable to be fully independent.

I'd listen to that over and above the press.

An autism diagnosis even if it was given after the crime was committed is still very difficult to obtain and cannot be got 'to order'. The cynicism behind the insinuation that it's a convenient excuse is highly offensive to the autistic community.

Nobody has said that 'poor impulse control' (which isn't necessarily an ASD trait, it can be but TBH it's closer to ADD or ADHD) should mean an individual gets 'let off' for criminal activity.

Autism is a structural, biological disability. It's a strong mitigating factor behind this crime. Not an 'excuse', a reason.

Which is why this should be dealt with here in the UK where such mitigation is applied and where Laurie has a support network and can have his needs met in the most appropriate environment deemed appropriate by our justice system.

I also hope those that manipulated Laurie are held to account for their actions.

I agree that a crime committed. British soil should be brought to court in the UK which is why I am not sure that extradition would be right in this case even if Laurie was NT (I don't know enough about how and where cyber crimes are deemed to have taken place in law). But j don't think that Britain need all the evidence in order to jauntily an extradition as compiling of evidence is the job of the courts and legal system in the country bringing charges. And what is illegal in one country might not be illegal here but a crime might still have taken place if committed in another country. How much evidence was presented in Nigeria to get that actresses killer extradited? I'm sure something was presented but probably not nearly as much as you will get in an actual court case.