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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not understand what Laurie Love's Aspergers has to do with his extradition

304 replies

Olympiathequeen · 15/11/2016 10:50

Not an autism bashing thread please.

But he is a political activist. He knew what he was doing and that it was wrong.

If 10 year olds who know the difference between right and wrong can be held criminally responsible why can't he?

He caused damage and expense to the US government so he should pay for it like anyone else.

He may be a suicide risk but so are many people in jail.

Surely his Aspergers is irrelevant?

OP posts:
LagunaBubbles · 15/11/2016 13:15

He must have known it was against the law and there are consequences

That to me displays so much ignorance about ASD....OP how can you know this??

goddessofsmallthings · 15/11/2016 13:18

It's my understanding that, if extradited to to the U.S.A, Mr Love may be tried in three different states and, if convicted, may be fined millions of dollars and ordered to serve prison sentences totalling some 90+ years.

If tried and found guilty in the UK, where Mr Love is alleged to have committed computer crimes, the maximum prison sentence is less than 3 years.

To use a term from the US Constitution, I believe it would be 'cruel and unusual punishment' to extradite Mr Love and it's to be hoped that the High Court will allow his appeal and be of the opinion that there is no provision in UK law for what is tantamount to the breaking of a butterfly on a wheel.

GuttedAboutBrother · 15/11/2016 13:21

Not to mention he would be in prison in the US for a long long time pre-trial as of course he would be refused bail as he has no ties to the country, the whole time being at risk of suicide or prison violence (he is unfortunately very good at pissing people off because he does not understand social rules and conventions) while he is still 'innocent until proven guilty'. In the UK he can be bailed until trial.

shovetheholly · 15/11/2016 13:22

I wrote a post but it got lost! Basically, there is something wrong with the people who post below the line comments in the Mail. A piece of humanity is missing from them. Your poor mum.

minifingerz · 15/11/2016 13:25

So sorry for your family Gutted. I really wish you a good outcome. Flowers

My son has HFA. He has a completely different understanding of how the world works than someone who is NT. He can't be reasoned or persuaded out of courses of action which he has determined on because he has a different set of drivers. It's hard to explain. He is of normal intelligence and communicates well, but is at the same time quite severely impaired in his understanding of people and of the world.

helpimitchy · 15/11/2016 13:27

I'd just like to say that I heard him interviewed on R4 this morning and am of the opinion that the interviewer was bang out of order.

minifingerz · 15/11/2016 13:28

Gutted my ds is also a genius at pissing people off.

He could have an argument in an empty room.

Does your brother have a defence fund that mumsnetters can contribute to?

GuttedAboutBrother · 15/11/2016 13:34

Yeah that interview was extremely out of order, repeatedly trying to get him to incriminate itself.

freelauri.com has all the information about his defence and funds that can be contributed to. While he is in the UK he gets legal aid but he obviously won't be eligible for it in the US.

Original poster
Olympiathequeen · 15/11/2016 13:35

Not sure why MN haven't taken it down as I have requested? Perhaps because people are prepared to look at wider issues and not attempt poster bashing?

I know 2 boys with HFA who both know it's wrong to steal and don't, so I don't think it's right to say someone with Aspergers is unaware of the consequences. I think it's possible if one of these lads (children) got obsessed with a particular sweet they might just steal and not look at the consequences?

Also many many criminals without any LD act with no thought to the consequences or think they will get away with it. Young, impulsive, thoughtless. Are those reasons not to prosecute.

When I did a level law our teacher who did voluntary work in a prison teaching reading told us about a young lad who decided to join his mates in a robbery as a laugh not knowing they had a gun. He's doing a long sentence for armed robbery.

Young children (10) are deemed criminally responsible. Hmm

Where do we draw the line?

For me the line is extraditing to a country where the prisons and the sentences are draconian. Where sharing of all evidence is sidestepped. Where no account is taken of medical and mental issues. Where someone like Donald Trump can be president elect.

A serious issue is the time between discovering the alleged crime and this extradition. Mr Love has turned things around for himself and works to alert companies on their lack of security.

On balance I think he shouldn't be extradited but maybe there could be some education for children with HFA so perhaps they understood better or had someone to turn to if they felt they were getting in deep. It boils down to looking at cases on a more individual basis.

OP posts:
helpimitchy · 15/11/2016 13:44

Perhaps if society, institutions and workplaces were more autism friendly, people like Mr Love would be able to work and use their obvious talents within a workplace.

I think they should give him a job. He's exposed flaws within their systems.

LagunaBubbles · 15/11/2016 13:54

I know 2 boys with HFA who both know it's wrong to steal and don't, so I don't think it's right to say someone with Aspergers is unaware of the consequences

No-one has said this. But just because you know 2 boys you cant say everyone with ASD understands consequences as your statement He must have known it was against the law and there are consequences suggests either.

AndNowItsSeven · 15/11/2016 13:57

You know two boys with asd op, and from that you infer that everyone with asd must understand consequences. Really?

PigPigTrotters · 15/11/2016 13:58

"I know 2 boys with HFA who both know it's wrong to steal and don't, so I don't think it's right to say someone with Aspergers is unaware of the consequences."

You know two boys with HFA therefore you are qualified to judge each and every person within the autistic community?
Bollocks.
There's a saying, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person.
Like non-autistic people, we're all different, we have different sets of skills, different strengths, different weaknesses. You cannot possibly judge this case from knowing 2 autistic boys, and tbh if you knew the slightest bit about ASD you would know that. Quit spouting about it until you've educated yourself a bit please.

AndNowItsSeven · 15/11/2016 13:59

PigPig you are forgetting the op has also studied A level law so quite the expert.

brasty · 15/11/2016 14:00

There is a difference between knowing right and wrong legally, and what might be seen as understanding the consequences.

SporkLife · 15/11/2016 14:03

There's a saying, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person

This with bells on, every single time there is an autism thread on Mn "oh my wife's cousins best friend, yeah her kid has autism and he's totally normal/doesn't do that/manages that so you're just not trying hard enough"

Fairylea · 15/11/2016 14:05

Yes to Pigpig. Was about to post the same thing.

Sixisthemagicnumber · 15/11/2016 14:13

Where do we draw the line?

Doli incapax explains how the line is drawn. In England and Wales the age of criminal responsibility is set at 10 but for children ages 10 to 13 The defence team can asked for Doli incapax to be satisfied to prove that the child understands right from wrong, which would only be done of it is obvious that the child is developmentally younger than he is chronologically. There is similar allowance for people with learning disabilities who have a low mental / developmental age and the defence team also often ask for psychiatric or psychological reports and assessments in cases where their client is seen to be suffering from a mental disorder which means he is either not fit to stand trial / enter plea or was mentally unwell at the time of the crime and was not in control of his / her actions. My DH works in law and from what he tells me his attempts to avoid trial due to psychiatric reasons are rarely successful. In a small percentage of his cases he has managed to secure hospital orders rather than his clients standing trial. But a hospital order is not an easy way out. He has had clients suffering obvious psychosis sent to prison after standing trial, including one I can think of who was hallucinating in court, taking a daily cocktail of anti psychosis drugs and was double incontinent amongst other health issues (he was sent to the hospital wing when he arrived at prison but remained in prison). He has also had clients sent to prison despite suffering cancer and needing hospital treatment. I have no doubt that US prisons are less humane but we would be kidding ourselves if we started to believe that UK prisons are beacons of excellence for looking after those with physical or mental problems. DH reckons the women's prisons are by far the worse as the percentage of women on suicide watch is much higher than in male prisons and apparently dirty protests are a daily thing.
Sorry for the odd tangent there.

pklme · 15/11/2016 14:14

Don't jump on the OP, she's trying to work out how we can hold people accountable. There is a sense in which the vast majority of offenders are shaped by their circumstances, very few people are born criminal. We still hold them accountable, despite that.

I think it would take a specialist to understand the degree of intention and understanding someone with ASD has in any situation. I choose to be generous to my DH and assume he's doing the best he can.

The OP is saying that whatever Laurie has done in this case, extradition is not the right thing.

GuttedAboutBrother · 15/11/2016 14:16

UK prisons certainly have their issues but both my parents work in the prison service and they are confident from their experiences that my brother stands a much better chance in them.

Original poster
Olympiathequeen · 15/11/2016 14:18

So I've asked for no autism bashing but that doesn't mean anyone can get bashed just because you choose to misinterpret what I've said?

Knowing children with HFA qualifies me for nothing. I never said it did. It was an example. Having a level law was just a lead in to explain why I was talking to a prison visitor. I've said already all cases should be looked at individually which shows to me at least I don't lump everyone into single category.

I believe Mr Love must have known it was illegal but believed he was doing the right thing as a political activist. Like wiki leaks and so on. It's an insult to anyones intelligence to think he didn't. Plenty of people break the law (seen anyone using a mobile phone at the wheel lately?) but ignore the consequences.

If you think insulting me and twisting what I've said makes a better argued case then go ahead.

OP posts:
Original poster
Olympiathequeen · 15/11/2016 14:21

six. That's bloody awful Sad

OP posts:
brasty · 15/11/2016 14:30

And how many teenagers or young people commit crime and don't really understand the consequences? Lots of them I would imagine.

I am totally against the way people can be extradited to America without any proof they have committed the crime, or any safeguards. But under our own legal system, I see no reason for someone with Aspergers to be treated differently to others,

FV45 · 15/11/2016 14:31

I know Laurie and some of his family and I want to send my support gutted

PigPigTrotters · 15/11/2016 14:31

Olympia, if you're talking to me, I didn't intentionally insult you or twist anything.
You made a comment which those of us who are autistic are frankly fed up to the back teeth of. Throughout this thread a few of us have tried to explain things about autism to help others understand.

You are making comments related to an autistic man, then made judgements in a way that shows little understanding of autism. Those of us who are autistic, or have autistic children, are subjected to those kind of comments all the time. It's wearing.
I apologise if my post upset you, but I would also ask that you stop making judgements about autistic people unless you are happy to be corrected.