To not understand what Laurie Love's Aspergers has to do with his extradition

[Olympiathequeen]

Not an autism bashing thread please.

But he is a political activist. He knew what he was doing and that it was wrong.

If 10 year olds who know the difference between right and wrong can be held criminally responsible why can't he?

He caused damage and expense to the US government so he should pay for it like anyone else.

He may be a suicide risk but so are many people in jail.

Surely his Aspergers is irrelevant?

I know Laurie and some of his family and I want to send my support gutted

Thanks

I believe Mr Love must have known it was illegal but believed he was doing the right thing as a political activist. Like wiki leaks and so on. It's an insult to anyones intelligence to think he didn't

You really dont seem to get it....what you believe, what you think just because of his diagnosis does not equal fact because ASD is a spectrum. Can you explain what you mean by an insult to anyones intelligence to think he didnt?

Yes Aspergers is a spectrum. But the point is our law. 10 year olds are found to be legally criminal responsible. 10 year olds can not live alone. Whatever you think of our law, lack of impulse control does not mean you can be found not really guilty of a crime. Criminal responsibility in Britain has a specific meaning and is about whether you understand what is right or wrong. The 10 year old boys in the Bulger case were found to be criminally responsible because they could answer simple questions showing that they knew what was right and wrong.

The point of the thread, if any, is that having HFA or Aspergers cannot be used an excuse for breaking the law. Most people with HFA cope within the law and understand its consequences. It cannot be a blanket statement that all people on the spectrum can't be held accountable.

I said it an insult to the intelligence to say that such an intelligent and articulate man as Mr Love didn't have a reasonable concept of the legality. There is every indication he operated within a hackers 'cell' in secrecy and covered his hacking tracks by leaving the server but with a hackers 'back door'. I'll say it again. Maybe he thought he was doing the right thing politically and I'm sure the excitement and challenge of breaking into top security systems was exciting blinkered him to the enormity of what he and his friends were doing, but so do criminals generally.

I am saying some autistic people don't understand consequences and some do. It shouldn't be used as an excuse. However to be extradited to the USA with such harsh penalties seems wrong to me. Just wish it had been British security he had hacked.

Does it give society in general a bad picture of people with Aspergers when the majority function fairly well in society? It's just incredibly difficult but I hope the extradition fails at the next stage.

Does it give society in general a bad picture of people with Aspergers

lol only if society is very stupid! we are not a union, far more NT commit crimes but I don't think all NT are criminals, because one person doesn't represent the whole group, one person with aspergers is not the same as the other, in personality, in understanding, in anything.

I don't know the guy so I can't comment on if knew or understood, but I agree that either way a life sentence in America would be so wrong.

He isn't even wanting to use it as an excuse to escape justice, just to ensure that justice is properly served in his own country which is perfectly capable of carrying out that justice (if the Americans would hand over the evidence that they are conveniently refusing to do)

Imo you're digging a bigger hole for yourself every time you post, Olympia.

Having demonstrated that your understanding of the law is as deficient as your understanding of Asperger's, you've now set yourself up as judge, jury, and expert witness, and I find it incomprehensible that you're done so despite being aware that a close relative of Mr Love has posted on this thread.

you've done so

I said it an insult to the intelligence to say that such an intelligent and articulate man as Mr Love didn't have a reasonable concept of the legality.

Right so you know him personally and how his ASD affects his reasoning and thinking then? It has nothing to do with intelligence for goodness sake!

Whatever you think of our law, lack of impulse control does not mean you can be found not really guilty of a crime

To my knowledge no-one on this thread has said it does.

I hadn't even heard about this prior to reading this thread, but some things in it stood out to me, especially that his Aspergers was only diagnosed after the event took place.

So this maybe a controversial opinion, and please correct me if I've misunderstood as I don't wish to offend.

It may be that I'm being very cynical, but imo it's quite a coincidence that he was only diagnosed with Aspergers after he'd been caught.

I hate to think this, but it's crossed my mind, and so I'm wondering if it's because the family saw that the other guy ( Gary ?) who also committed hacking offences was let off because of it.

I accept that he'd already been diagnosed with MH issues previous to these offences, but can someone explain to me why there was no ASD dx before this offence.

Aspergers or not though, if it can be proven that he understands right from wrong he should face trial for this, whether that's here or in the US, and he should be punished if found guilty.

Aspergers is not an excuse to break the law, and I speak as someone whose DC has it.

BTW, I've only read upto the post where budgie gives a link, which I've read, and mentions the time frame for the ASD dx. I'll now read the rest and will apologise in advance in case my questions/observations have already been answered.

gutted.

My Dc has asd, very high functioning, and needs 24/7 care and supervision.

I understand, and the media are making out ASD to be a crime.

if he was goaded by others, why aren't the others being punished?

if left alone, my DC is very very easily influenced, and was in a,ot of trouble when she was at school because of bullies goading her, she cant tell the difference betewwn right and wrong and would do as they said.

and computers should be better policed IMO, if they can be so easily hacked then I despair for all personal info on computer files.

its the computer/internet manufacturers who should be responsible to make sure classified info is secure.

Op and everyone else who doesn't understand asd, please lean.

good luck gutted, hope all is sorted properly.

is there a chance you could cite discrimination on disability grounds?

please LEARN, not lean. Doh!

His Aspergers is very relevant. For contrast see Brendan Dassey now being released because the cops coerced him into a confession. If you told my DS he could go home and watch whatever he wanted - he'd tell you whatever you want to hear too.

OP it's relevant as my DS also has AS. They don't get the cause = consequence thing.
My DD knows playing with fire is wrong. My DS on the other hand would touch it to 'see what it does'.

I'm using this analogy as LL presumably just 'wanted to see what it does' as opposed to my DD who would know "if I do this I'll be up shitcreek with several government agencies on my arse".

My DS is 7 almost 8, but he has the mental age of a 3year old and many professionals have commented on how he doesn't present as a 7/8 year old should.

That's why it's relevant because those with AS dont usually behave as impeccably as their peers through no fault of their own.

It is not that we don't understand ASD, it is that we understand the law.

There was always something different about him name but we didn't know what it was, he couldn't understand social rules and conventions, was not good at recognising other people's emotions and absolutely terrible at dealing with them, would get hyperfocused on things. Because he was extremely intelligent and developed coping skills early on my parents didn't realise there was anything to diagnose. In hindsight, the signs were all there. When my OH met my brother for the first time he said to me "He's autistic, isn't he?"

is there a chance you could cite discrimination on disability grounds?

I don't think so, and I don't think he would want to do that anyway, I think he wants his day in Court, just in the UK.

As I understand it, Mr Love was diagnosed with autism when he was serving in the Finnish Army, and he was subsequently diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome c2012 when he was in his late 20's, name2change.

It's not being used as an excuse its being used as a mitigating factor and rightly so. If blokes who kill their wife in cold blood can plead insanity / diminished responsibility to get off lighter. I have no problem with someone using their medical condition to factor in why they did some hacking which should be illegal but didn't quite grasp the consequences of doing so.

I'm off the opinion that anyone that good at hacking should simply be employed by the government to help them fight real cyber crime and terrorism plots but hey ho

I recently attended a presentation on autism and terrorism. I found the lack of understanding of the condition from police/FBI etc very alarming.

"One recent case which provides some understanding as to the role played by autistic special interests is that of the Mark Alexander Harding (21) who was sentenced to 18 months probation for downloading copies of the terrorist magazines Inspire and Palestine which are created by the global terrorist group formerly headed by Osama bin Laden. Harding had posted 5,000 comments, some supporting the so-called Islamic State, on the internet forum 4Chan – an English-language imageboard website containing hundreds of threads about numerous subject matters. Additionally, police also found that he has amassed on his computer ‘a large number’ of images and audio material stored in two folders named ‘Islam’ and ‘Nasheed’. It was recognised that Harding had not been radicalised and his online persona was a by-product of his autism which caused him to develop obsessions over specific subjects. One argument that has been suggested is that Harding’s use of the internet forum was evidence that he was ‘acting out’ his angers and frustrations."

hub.salford.ac.uk/salfordpsych/2016/03/15/certain-mental-disorders-put-people-risk-radicalised/

Pixies hackers are very often employed by the government.

I still stand by the fact that I do not believe this man (if found guilty) should be extradited to US prison. That said, I don't think UK prison is any better at dealing with vulnerable adults either.

It's really hard when people appear cognitively fully able but are not fully able with regards to the higher levels of functioning. I think these people are most vulnerable to be abused and manipulated.

Gutted I am sorry for what you and your family are going through.

I've now read the rest of the posts.

The sentence he's facing seems extremely harsh; you'd get less for murder, which seems mad.

I think that an expert in ASD should assess him and that his medical opinion should be taken into account and followed if he's found guilty.
I also think that this expert's opinion of whether or not he should be extradited should hold a lot of sway. If he believes it's not in his best interests (mentally and physically) then he should be tried in the UK and the expert's evidence should be taken into account by the judge and jury.

Gutted I'm so sorry about your brother. I'm appalled he can be extradited. He needs to be tried in Britain as he committed the crimes here.

People with Asperger's are often dx much later than others with autism, as they can often 'pass as normal'. I tick that box, as does my DH and our DC. DC was finally dx at 10, which is so much better than it used to be.