To not understand what Laurie Love's Aspergers has to do with his extradition

[Olympiathequeen]

Not an autism bashing thread please.

But he is a political activist. He knew what he was doing and that it was wrong.

If 10 year olds who know the difference between right and wrong can be held criminally responsible why can't he?

He caused damage and expense to the US government so he should pay for it like anyone else.

He may be a suicide risk but so are many people in jail.

Surely his Aspergers is irrelevant?

And actually I have no issue with a thread discussing the issues surrounding the case but I very much take issue with the OP's assumptions and beliefs about it in the face of people who have knowledge of autism and Laurie's sister.

"An expert in ASD assessed him".

Can I just say, with the greatest respect. That means shit and I wish I could be LLs lawyer (off on long term sick).

An "Expert" told us there was sod all wrong with DS. "well he can talk to me okay so he cant have autism". That was from an expert supposedly top in this field coming out with ignorant statements like that. They should have known better than anyone! Very long winded and very expensive reports to show that this wasn't all in our heads and it took a CAMHs worker to say "DS has Aspergers" before he was treated as if he was.

its not that we don't understand ASD, it's that we understand the law

Not so much. The law is a very complicated area to study with various defences available to those who need it. Political activist or not. He hacked into a computer system - he didn't kill the Queen.

Oh and I don't for one minute think that the system here will automatically meet his needs but surely being in the same jurisdiction as his support network means that if things are going awry with his treatment steps can be made to rectify it rather than being in a completely different part of the world where they won't even consider the mitigating circumstances.

I agree that crimes committed in this country should be tried in this country and this extradition is a disgrace. Shame on Amber Rudd. I hope it's appealed. The thought of a 99 year jail sentence is barbaric. We're not talking about a serial killer here.

Exactly IEatCannibals yet people are happy to see LL possibly incarcerated for that many years basically because an autistic bloke ought to have known what he was doing was wrong.

Seriously the fucking sanctimony on this thread.

The difference with extradition laws to the US, is that the US do not have to provide any evidence of illegal behaviour. With other countries, to obtain extradition, evidence has to be provided. We extradite to the US just on their say so.

Legally it doesn't matter if someone can not live independently. Children aged 10 and over are usually held to be criminally responsible, yet can not live independently. The barrier to prove that someone is not criminally responsible is very very high.
Something like Aspergers MIGHT be taken in to account when sentencing. But I am not surprised to hear that the Judge dismissed an experts testimony. And I totally understand the family using anything they can to fight extradition. Because jail sentences there are far longer, so he would get a shorter sentence in Britain.

Gutted - I'm very sorry your family is going through this. I also heard that interview this morning and thought it was a disgrace. to you and your family.

Is there anything we can do to put pressure on the government?

The judge was not supposed to dismiss the evidence though brasty It was the test case for the Forum Bar which is supposed to stop vulnerable people from being extradited if it risks their health and/or life so the expert evidence was crucial. She agreed with the evidence actually, but just decided that the risks to him weren't enough to stop the extradition.

Even if the prison service in the UK would be bad, at least mum and dad could visit him and put pressure on the prison if it fails to take care of him properly.

Damn, reported. Damn DD distracted me.

You can write to your MP to keep raising the issue in parliament and sign the letter to Obama Geretrude

Sorry not read the whole thread. I may be wrong but I was under the impression that Gary McKinnon was not diagnosed until after his Arrest. ( presumably his defence team had an assessment done ) My concern is that if his needs were that complex would he not have flagged up while at school?

Spirited that q has been asked and answered.

If conversations like this raises awareness of the discrepancy between British and US justice and the inequality faced by people like LL (and by that I mean vulnerable people who break the law in the country they live in) then maybe people can advocate for a fairer system?

I certainly haven't said Mr Love should be incarcerated in the US. Quite the opposite. I also asked for the thread to be removed as there was a personal element from his sister and I didn't want to cause her any more distress, regardless of this being a current news topic.

I do think its important for awareness to be raised about how the US can just ask for anyone without showing any evidence whereas the UK has to provide evidence if it makes an extradition request. This makes it possible for the US to extradite people for political reasons rather than legal ones which is very very risky.

I honestly don't mind this thread Olympia can't really get more distressed than I am already.

In a school situation it is common for people to fly under the radar, or simply be written off as eccentric, or intense, or weird.

It's remarkably common for people to have complex presentations, and not be able to live independently, but it not be identified.

I was diagnosed at 40. With hindsight I had support needs, but was treated as someone who just needed to fit in better, work harder, stop being me.

Services for diagnosis and support in this country can be dreadful, depending on where you are.

If the family had concerns regarding asperger's, and he cannot live independently, then they did exactly he right thing. Before this there's every chance that he had never been in a situation where a diagnosis was necessary.

Asperger's doesn't excuse this at all, but it does give clues how this happened and raises points about Laurie's needs, and does mean that the drive behind his crime was likely very different to the drive behind typical crimes.

(I've posted before on this thread as PigPig, but have had a spontaneous name change)

There's so much generalisation here (from both sides of the debate). People with ASD/Aspergers/HFA etc will vary in their interpretations of the law, as we all do, and how much they want to "obey" the law. To assume that because someone has Aspergers they don't know the law is wrong, but so is assuming they do.

I work with offenders with learning disabilities though, and the attitude of "Aw well they have a learning disability so they shouldn't face consequences" is damaging to people's understanding of the law and what is moral, and also dangerous for the public. I don't think that applies in this case however (with differences to US and UK law etc)

I know many, many people who got to adulthood without psychiatric learning disabilities, ASC or ADHD being picked up beforehand.

There are also some private Drs who are shit and who do shit assessments and provide a diagnosis for a hefty fee. It doesn't sound like that is the case here though.

gutted. If you want the thread deleted just message mn HQ, as in 'report poster' me! They have given me the option of deleting but I will give that option to you and inform them of this.

I think it is very courageous of you to put such a good case for your brother and I sincerely hope you get the outcome you want for him, especially as the US governments dragging the whole process out is damaging to his mental health. Good luck. I'll hide this thread now.

Did anyone say 'Aww' sugarlightly? It doesn't sound as though you understand much about autism.

I have to confess a bias here - my DS has HFA. He's very, very smart. He's also very lacking in understanding in some areas. He totally understands that stealing is wrong but were he to find £50 on the street, he wouldn't consider that stealing because it's not in anyone's possession.

Not all learning difficulties are the same.

Thanks Olympia

They're often not diagnosed at school because they fly under the radar / parenting is blamed / some schools don't gives shit. Take a look round the SNs board and you'll see just how common a problem this is.

This is why getting an EARLY diagnosis is SO important. Because without it, you up with these children growing up into vulnerable adults with no proper support in place. It will be an epidemic of a different sort and it's a tragedy to those who go under the net for so long.

Knowing the law is wrong and not understanding the implications of breaking such a law are two very different things.

This is a very clever man who has nonetheless failed to live away from home for any substantial amount of time due to mental breakdowns and medical issues.

How anyone can justify sending him across the world to serve a ludicrous prison sentence is beyond me. He wants a trial here, his family is here, a prison sentence would be shorter. He is not seeking to evade justice, just cruel and unreasonable treatment.

Well said noblegiraffe

Re my last post I'm referring to those with LDs.

sugarlightly you work with offenders with LDs and have that attitude? I get it I really do, my DD had the absolute fuck bullied out of her and nothing was ever done, because X had 'problems at home' and ADHD according to their mother. No veritable diagnosis but the school made allowances for them anyway. I have no doubt you're brilliant at your job and I hope you treat them fairly.

If "you've met one person with autism, then you've met one person with autism" then nobody should be assuming that Laurie Love's autism actually has any relevance to the crime committed.

If that is just a bland meaningless statement and someone can admit that autism is a diagnosis with commonalities, hence it's diagnosed from a list of traits/symptoms, then maybe we can have some useful discussion about it.

I see the need to overturn negative judgements or stereotypes of autistic people, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater and make useless claims that ASD doesn't involve certain characteristic traits.