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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand what Laurie Love's Aspergers has to do with his extradition

304 replies

Olympiathequeen · 15/11/2016 10:50

Not an autism bashing thread please.

But he is a political activist. He knew what he was doing and that it was wrong.

If 10 year olds who know the difference between right and wrong can be held criminally responsible why can't he?

He caused damage and expense to the US government so he should pay for it like anyone else.

He may be a suicide risk but so are many people in jail.

Surely his Aspergers is irrelevant?

OP posts:
Genevieva · 16/11/2016 17:52

I haven't read all the posts, so forgive me if I am covering the same ground as others.

My understanding is that there are two aspects to his case. One is more closely liked to his Aspergers / high functioning autism than the other.

The first relates to the Kafkaesque situation of being extradited to another country without knowing the details of the crime you have been accused of or the evidence against you. This is because of an imbalance in the extradition treaty that should concern all of us. It is a situation brought upon us by our own government that feels almost like a form of treason - a breach of the social contract between citizens and government.

When someone is tried at home they have their support network around them - a home, family etc. If they are extradited to a country where they have no family and no home, and where they have no means of supporting themselves then very few people will have the financial ability to apply for bail. This means that they are incarcerated in a foreign country where they received no visitors and (despite sharing a language) may struggle with the cultural differences.

Laurie Love, as someone with autism, has areas of ability and disability. He sounds articulate and, in this regard, if he has committed a crime then he should be tried and serve the sentence for it. However, the justice system should also make allowances for disabled people to ensure that they are not discriminated against during the trial process, so that they are fit to stand trial and defend themselves.

He still lives at home and appears to live a very quiet life. It is possible that he would struggle to care for himself without his mother's constant presence (something that would not be possible if he was extradited). It is also probable that the noise and the large number of people in a prison environment would be particularly hard for him to process. People with autism can be at higher risk of suffering from anxiety, depression and suicidal feelings.

I don't know the details of the case and what exactly is and isn't known, but, having heard the BBC interview, I am of the view that his trial should be held here and, if found guilty, his sentence should be served here too. He has never been to the US, so if he committed a crime, he committed it on British soil. We have a highly regarded justice system that is not dissimilar from America's. There is no reason to extradite him.

Quite frankly, the US ought to be able to make their secure servers un-hackable. Then these things won't happen. It seems bizarre that a British loaner should go through this circus when there are probably thousands of people employed by various countries hacking away with impunity.

MyWineTime · 16/11/2016 17:55

Apparently it has cost millions of dollars to repair and secure these systems.
They should thank him for pointing out where all of their flaws were!
They only had to spend millions to secure their systems because they weren't secure in the first place. They should be grateful that it wasn't someone more dangerous who found their open doors.

GuttedAboutBrother · 16/11/2016 17:55

Genevieva You summed it up really well. The UK-US extradition treaty is something we should all fight against us as it is incredibly unbalanced and the US apparently don't even follow the few rules they are supposed to (like not bringing fresh charges after extradition - apparently they do that)

GuttedAboutBrother · 16/11/2016 17:56

They should be grateful that it wasn't someone more dangerous who found their open doors
Quite likely more dangerous people already did find those open doors. I hope they've secured them better now!

AwaywiththePixies27 · 16/11/2016 18:27

God with been over this a thousand times already Hmm

Confused
AwaywiththePixies27 · 16/11/2016 18:35

CloudPerson IMO they're generally psychopaths though. Makes me think of Sherlock and his "I'm a high functioning sociopath!" Line Grin I know its unconventional but they're usually behind bars for good reason.

DSs emotional and empathy behaviour are interchangeable. Last week. On the way home from school. DD fell on her arse. One of those check kid is okay then laugh your head off. She was okay. We both laughed. DS just looked on at her with a blank stare trying to process how she ended up on her back Grin
In other times he can be the most loving little boy you've ever met, he always gives his SENCO a big hug, and is currently worrying a little bit too much about me as I'm currently in hospital for the umpteenth time this year. hence all the mumsnetting.

GuttedAboutBrother · 16/11/2016 18:42

The Wine is much appreciated Awaywith could really do with some right now actually

CloudPerson · 16/11/2016 18:50

Away, I read a book about psychopaths and the high numbers when it comes to violent crime.
Iirc there was a prison governor who estimated up to 60% of young offenders being undiagnosed autistic/ADHD/ld which unsupported can lead to dangerous/challenging behaviour.

We have our concerns about ds2, he's very impulsive and gets into trouble because he doesn't think anything through. If he didn't have a diagnosis he'd simply be seen as being off the rails - something we're working very hard at to try to prevent.

Gutted, hope things improve Flowers

redpeppersoup · 16/11/2016 18:51

Suggesting the US Govt should be grateful to him is really clutching at straws. It smacks of 'but other people break the law too so why should he be punished just because he was caught?!' Ridiculous Confused

Sugarlightly · 16/11/2016 19:13

Awaywiththefairies what attitude? I think you've misunderstood my post

Sugarlightly · 16/11/2016 19:16

Geretrude there are people who think individuals automatically don't know the law because they have a learning disability/ASD.

Pagwatch · 16/11/2016 19:18

If it helps at all with the constant ignorance about a young man with aspergers who is intelligent and reasonable in manner being driven into poor decision by their condition let me give a better example.

I know a 33 year old man who has aspergers. He has a degree and is intelligent and sociable when you meet him.
He goes out to meet friend one or twice a month. When coming home he takes the shortest and most logical route to the train station. It takes him through a dodgy area of his city. He has been attacked three times.
His friends and relatives make endless efforts to try and persuade him to come home a different way. They try to book him taxis or walk with him but every now and again he has to walk and he always takes the same route.
Because it's the shortest and most logical.
That's how aspergers can manifest itself.

Just because it seems one way to someone outside is not the point. A person with aspergers may be unable to see things the way that mainstream society does.
Saying 'he's intelligent enough to know the difference between right and wrong' is so far off the point it's ridiculous.
Please will people stop saying it. It's really stupid.

ThisIsReallyNotMyName · 16/11/2016 19:24

He didn't just hack into these systems he actually then stole information. This information has been accessed by others and put countless people at risk. My 29 year old son has Aspergers and he knows the difference between right and wrong.

ThisIsReallyNotMyName · 16/11/2016 19:25

He was also part of s group of which he led and was considered the most intelligent. He was definitely not taken advantage of.

redpeppersoup · 16/11/2016 19:28

Yes, I seem to remember loads of people being up in arms when MN was hacked about their personal information being accessed - quite rightly so - LL has done exactly the same thing but on a much bigger scale. I doubt people would still be calling for him to be able to pursue his obsession with hacking if he had stolen their details.

Pagwatch · 16/11/2016 19:34
AwaywiththePixies27 · 16/11/2016 19:36

for medicinal purposes. Obvs. Wink

Pagwatch · 16/11/2016 19:40

Thank you Smile

My son has autism and learning difficulties and can snorkel.
I don't really believe anyone with autism who claims they can't snorkel.

Pandamanda3 · 16/11/2016 19:42

Gutted I'm so sorry you and your family are in this situation 💐 you really sound like such a strong person, and a wonderful sister, Iv been trying to keep up with this thread all day and cannot believe some of the stuff Iv read!
Tbh just my opinion I do not agree with extradition and I do not believe he should be charged at all, he hasn't killed anyone he hasn't caused anyone any specific harm or distress, (apart from the security / computer team 'whatever you call them) in us, 😂 but really to be hacked by somebody in their bedroom then I think they have missed the boat, they should actually use their heads and get him on board.

Not extradite him to some pigeon pen for the rest of his life how's that helping anyone or him? It's not helping him overcome his issues or reforming him because he has bloody asd and no matter what you do he always will have you cant magic it away.
My son has asd and I think those who do not have any understanding of it will never understand how complex this condition can be. So no nobody is saying people should escape punishment because of a disability but look at each case on its merit & this poor man shouldn't be getting treated like some murderer, rapist the U.S. legal system is so wrong.
God love you and your family gutted your patients and attitude on here speaks volumes about you and your family & I wish you luck and hope justice is served in the bloody uk and the us can go and get on with finding better security!

AwaywiththePixies27 · 16/11/2016 19:45

Panda it's very complex you are right. We've even had 'experts' tell us there's sod all wrong with DS when other professionals have said otherwise.

GuttedAboutBrother · 16/11/2016 20:04

This information has been accessed by others and put countless people at risk Ahem, proof please. I have not seen anywhere in any of the charges that others (apart from the alleged co-conspirators) have accessed that information. Pretty sure if that was true and known then the CPS would have had a case against him instead of dropping the case.

GuttedAboutBrother · 16/11/2016 20:08

Thanks Panda I've always had to have patience because of him, other people don't understand him as well as I do. We were very close as children.

Pandamanda3 · 16/11/2016 20:17

Awaywiththepixies Yep had all that!
I can fully understand how people get missed and left in-diagnosed because even if you do have concerns as a parent sum professionals will just not acknowledge it and you end up feeling like your going crazy wondering why they can't see what you see. But a lot of the time they can see its just down to money and resources so you get ignored.
So in this case if you don't happen to see there's something slightly different with your dc and don't obviously act on it then yes it's feasible that people go all the way through to adulthood undiagnosed. Sad but true, then an event triggers people to notice.

Every one with autism is unique in the sense of what floats one boat, won't another if you get me, so the complexitys around that individuals ability understanding and perception of things are so so varied no matter how intelligent they may be. It's really a very difficult and miss understood condition.
I struggled for years with the diagnosis issues professionals involved drove me Insain. Then once it gets to the point it's so bloody obvious those same proffessional that said 'no there's nothing to worry about' start back tracking.
Bloody sad world we live in, I worry a lot for my dc and just hope Iv educated him enough so he can protect himself and cope with the world we find ourselves in!
I really feel for gutted and the family x

Katy07 · 16/11/2016 20:34

ThisIsReallyNotMyName Wed 16-Nov-16 19:25:49
He was also part of s group of which he led and was considered the most intelligent. He was definitely not taken advantage of.

Yes, because of course you can't be taken advantage of if you're intelligent!! Hmm
This has been a really depressing thread but on the upside, I now know that I can snorkel Grin Thanks Pagwatch Star

Pagwatch · 16/11/2016 20:36

Congratulations Katy07

Grin