To not understand what Laurie Love's Aspergers has to do with his extradition

[Olympiathequeen]

Not an autism bashing thread please.

But he is a political activist. He knew what he was doing and that it was wrong.

If 10 year olds who know the difference between right and wrong can be held criminally responsible why can't he?

He caused damage and expense to the US government so he should pay for it like anyone else.

He may be a suicide risk but so are many people in jail.

Surely his Aspergers is irrelevant?

I have Aspergers and I'm a lawyer.

There's a huge difference between the two propositions "Aspergers stops you seeing right from wrong" and "The effect of the US prison system on a person with Aspergers would amount to inhuman and degrading treatment."

I don't think many of us on the spectrum would say that we don't know right from wrong - a lot of us have a very strong sense of justice. However, some people with Aspergers may consider breaking the law acceptable in pursuit of justice, or may not have the social imagination to foresee consequences.

What I think most people would agree on is that the US prison system would have very seriously adverse consequences for a neurodivergent prisoner, and if that is held to amount to "inhuman and degrading treatment" then the appeal against extradition should succeed. That is NOT the same thing as saying that Aspergers amounts to a defence to criminality in all situations which it clearly doesn't.

I hope your brother wins Gutted

Would people agree with his extradition if he were facing the death penalty for the hacking?

It's a bit of a non question really because a lot of people don't agree with the death penalty regardless of the crime that has been committed. I'm not sure I agree with extradition in this case regardless.

*may

I agree that the US approach here seems inhuman and degrading, especially for someone not NT and / or with MH issues.

Ethical Hacking gives him a legitimate and good use of his obsession (which before he hadn't as before ethical hacking hacking was mostly nefarious), with no computer/Internet access he would find a different obsession which might not be so good. I don't think its wise to waste talent.

Laura explains the argument right. The argument is against sending him to inhumane and degrading treatment. He would be put in solitary confinement immediately on arrival, on suicide watch, which is where he'd likely spend most of his time. Solitary confinement is psychologically damaging even for a healthy person, it would destroy him.

I don't buy the argument that Asperger's somehow makes people innocent of crime

That is why I explicitly said that it does NOT make people innocent of crime. It is not a defence. It may however be a mitigating feature against extradition.

I have a feeling that some posters don't understand that you don't have to prove innocence in order to appeal an extradition order.

I don't think its wise to waste talent.

Yes but you would say that as it's someone close to you. I'm sure you'd rather he was let off either lightly or completely?

There are many talented people in the world. Many of them able to resist breaking the law to fuel an obsession, AS or no AS.

That is why I explicitly said that it does NOT make people innocent of crime. It is not a defence. It may however be a mitigating feature against extradition.

I said I'm not in favour of extradition. The general tone of the thread, however, has been in the vein that people with AS are a) totally unique individuals nobody could possibly make assumptions about and b) liable to obsessions which are not their fault, thereby raising a question mark over their criminal responsibility. I don't think there need be a question mark over it, others with people with AS close to them seem to disagree.

Solitary confinement is psychologically damaging even for a healthy person, it would destroy him.

It destroys many so-called NT people. The campaign should be for ending solitary, not excluding some people from it and letting the rest languish.

I don't relish the idea of him going to prison even in the UK but I accept the possibility but absolutely disagree with banning computer use, its one of his few coping mechanisms, along with origami. I don't want to see him suffer.

Solitary should be abolished but we have no control over the US prison system and I highly doubt they will ever move away from such treatment. What we (as in the UK) do have control over is whether we send our citizens to such a system or not.

Of course you don't want him to suffer, nobody wants anyone close to them to suffer, but for justice to work it has to be fair, and there can't be exceptions made because family members would prefer it to be that way.

From the evidence it seems that this person made a choice to act the way he did and he could reasonably have known the consequences. Perhaps a good lawyer will get the sentence reduced on the basis of AS, but I really struggle to see the relevance of AS to this case and it comes off as an excuse.

I think it's not that easy to say, at a basic level, whether someone with Asperger's will know right from wrong as it's extremely context driven and where someone with Asperger's will struggle is in understanding that context and any surrounding subtleties. Often thinking can be quite black and white, and also pretty easy to manipulate.

But, IME, the bigger issue is the tunnel vision and hyper focus which can often make Aspies not think things through - it's very easy to get sucked in to "I'm trying to achieve X" without thinking that Y and Z might be the unintentional consequences of the actions you're going to take in order to achieve X. This can be true of people who seem very smart and capable and is one of the hardest things to deal with as unless you have experienced it, it doesn't seem to make much sense and is generally met with cries of "but how could it not occur to you that Y would happen?"

The AS is relevant to the extradition as has been explained a hundred times already. This is all about the extradition, NOT the alleged crime.

It comes off as an excuse because you're not listening and you're determined to see it that way, despite being repeatedly told that AS is not an excuse / defence.

When you look at whether or not treatment crosses the Article 3 threshold you don't just look at the treatment in a vacuum. Obviously there are some things, like beatings by state officials, which will always cross the threshold. Others, like solitary confinement, may amount to inhuman treatment for someone whose coping mechanisms are less robust than others. That's where AS is relevant.

Other things that are not a defence but which may be relevant to an Article 3 assessment include age (extreme youth or old age), physical disability, ill health whether physical or mental, etc etc.

It's not about criminal responsibility but about breach of Article 3, they are totally different areas of law and considered on different standards of proof.

The majority of men in prision have some sort of mental health issue. Don't see why Laurie shouldn't be treated as someone who has broken the law.

I have Aspergers. I dream of solitary confinement. Being without the internet though would kill me.

Gutted i am so sorry for you and your family.
The American justice system is totally inappropriate for anyone that has issues such as aspergers. I really hope the government refuse to extradite him.

I understand they are totally different, and that the legal case is about Article 3. But many here were talking about criminal responsibility. Which is why the family is saying that he should be tried in Britain. But the two countries also hand out vastly different sentences for the same crime.

Laura the wider discussion is about criminal responsibility. Many people have been discussing that in the thread and actually OP's post is about that.

I've never said anything about avoidance of criminal responsibility. I've repeatedly said it's a mitigating circumstance against extradition.

Not an autism bashing thread....REALLY???

There by the grace of god go I.....my son is autistic.this is exactly the type of thing I worry myself sick he would do .....just simply to prove he could.with no thought for the consequences..my son is highly intelligent..but away with the fairys on planet earth...god bless this family..and May people see sense

"But so many other people. I don't believe this is an Asperger's-specific trait. Many young men in prison have callous unemotional traits and could be said to have antisocial PD - should they be treated gently also?"

There are educated guesses that put the number of prison inmates with undiagnosed SN as a fairly high percentage of total offenders, which raises the problem of early identification and support, both things that are fairly crap in this country - if a child's needs aren't visibly obvious, they are put down to naughtiness and crap parenting.
Perhaps if a system was adopted where parents weren't immediately assumed to be at fault there'd be better support for these people which may lead to fewer in prison.
If any SN were identified, the person could be treated appropriately (not leniently, not gently, but in a way that will support their neurology) which would probably lead to better rates of rehabilitation and fewer re-offenders.