To not punish my daughter for answering honestly/telling the truth (Father Christmas related)

[iProcrastinate]

To cut a long story short! My DD(7.5) hasn't believed in Father Christmas for a couple of years, we never made a big deal about this and I just let her make her own mind up. We still do a Santa letter, and leave out a mince pie with the stocking, that's tradition; and you'll struggle to find a kid who loves Christmas as much as she does! I won't bore you with why we don't make a big deal over it!

DD is under strict instructions NOT to go around telling other children that he isn't real. I don't think that she would, But she has also been taught that to lie is wrong......

So DD and her class have recently moved into Yr3 at school, so they share a play ground with the older kids. DD and a friend of hers were asked, by an older child, do they think Father Christmas is real. DD answered no. That night I got a furious message from the mother of the friend, saying that DD could have 'ruined their Christmases', but fortunately she has managed to 'repair the damage', and could I reprimand DD. I apologised but said that I would speak to her about this but not punish her. She answered honestly.

AIBU not to punish her? At what age do kids start questioning the Father Christmas thing? Surely it must be a hot topic of conversation at this age? DD can't be the only 7yr old out there who doesn't believe.

I am very old now and of Scandinavian origin,mixed with German diluted by living in Africa with it's rich spiritual world.

We have a fusion of all the above that has morphed over six generations from a tall,slim, brown/green elf with a crook into the commercial fat red man.

Father Christmas has never let us down.The drink and mince pie always eaten and the snowy flour tracks always on the hessian sack to see with one's own eyes.

Even in boiling hot countries across a sad diaspora of family, whose young parents have taken the little traditions forward in their own way...because they remember...

OP, YANBU. Whilst I would be (mildly) upset if I was the other mother, I don't think your daughter did anything wrong. Diplomacy is (mostly) a good thing, but so is honesty and it is a tricky balance for children....

On the Father Christmas v critical thinking debate, some of the comments are a bit sniffy.

Isn't it possible that a child who "believes" in Father Christmas may just be exercising their superior critical thinking facilities and choosing to believe in something they see as a force for good, or accepting that not everything can be explained rationally? On one level, I would agree it is illogical that Father Christmas does not visit refugee children (because he does not exist in the corporeal sense). Hence, we do the shoeboxes. ( I guess, metaphorically, we become Father Christmas...which kind of echoes Good King Wencleas and possibly the origins of the myth).

I am sure my son, at one level, worked the shoebox conundrum out early on. But, at another level, he still had a belief in Father Christmas... because, I think, in part, he wanted to believe. I don't think it reflects on his critical thinking, rather the strength of his desire to believe, a sort of hope that good things can happen, that the world is inherently a good place. As a myth, Father Christmas serves a purpose, as does belief in him. As a (young) child that belief may be real, as one grows, perhaps it becomes more symbolic, but that doesn't necessarily diminish its strength, or purpose.

But I don't think it shows you're great at critical thinking to shoot that belief down. And why presume to tell us how critical thinking works? Humbug, I say.

My children have always been told that Father Christmas brings the presents but parents have to pay. This solves the problem of why x has got an xbox and why you can't ask for a pony.

My dd is 7 almost 8 and last year asked lots of questions about how it was all possible. I was vague and turned the question on her. How do
you think he does it?

I suspect she is like I was at the same age. I knew deep down that it wasn't true but wanted to keep believing. I then wrote a letter to Father Christmas and left it on my bed on Christmas Eve asking him to confirm he existed. I got a reply, in my dad's handwriting .

I'll invent "Mother Earthworth". She visits at the equinox in September, there is a big run-up. She sends us tickets to dances and magics the world colder. She's the reason the leaves fall, because she is (among other things) the mother of the trees. She looks a bit hippyish in her green and purple flowing gowns. My kids are total believers. I can trust your precious little shits are not going to spoil the magic, right? Because I'd have to kill them.

Sorry, that should read precocious, not precious little shits.

Hence, we do the shoeboxes. ( I guess, metaphorically, we become Father Christmas...which kind of echoes Good King Wencleas and possibly the origins of the myth).

If they're the operation Christmas child shoeboxes you're about as far from Santa as it's possible to get. They're not about the gifts, they exist to coerce children (and their grateful families) into an extreme church that preaches intolerance and hate. Happy Xmas.

Interesting! I agree with others don't punish your daughter . . .

My dad, who at the time was a vicar, told me santa was made up when I was about 5. I asked him right out and his rationale was he wouldn't lie directly, fair enough. As I recall he said 'no it's a load of bollocks', though he claims he let me down more gently than that. Anyway, I don't recall being upset or finding xmas any less magical & me and my siblings have to be some of the most into Christmas people ever even now. However, I was punished at school after I told a few people that 'my dad the vicar who comes into to do assemblies says santa is not real'. I had to stand in the corner for a few break times I think. That hurt, I remember feeling extremely upset about being punished for telling the truth. The feelings obviously lasted for some time as at secondary school I won a public speaking competition with a talk based on why parents should not lie about santa. Interestingly I did believe in the tooth fairy til I was at least 8, thanks I think to my mum writing letters in silver pen to apologise for the tooth fairy's forgetfulness!

My own kids are now 4&2 and I think I will continue spinning the yarn for a few years yet but if they ask me upfront I will have the same stance as my dad, I won't lie directly to them.

Just in case anyone is in any doubt that the purpose of the Shoebox ting is missionary work and evangelism, the evidence is all on the Samaritan's Purse Website: www.samaritanspurse.org/donation-items/gospel-booklets/

And many blogs similar to this describing how they distribute the boxes along with the gospel blog.samaritanspurse.org/taking-the-gospel-into-the-mountains-of-the-philippines/

Agreeing with Blu and HeCant on the perniciousness of the Samaritan's Purse shoeboxes. Which I have to say I thought everyone knew about, because it shows up in the press so regularly, and on here at least annually, but the Head of DS's school was genuinely shocked, because the shoebox appeal pre-dated her taking over as Head, and she thought it was completely benign.

they're the operation Christmas child shoeboxes you're about as far from Santa as it's possible to get. They're not about the gifts, they exist to coerce children (and their grateful families) into an extreme church that preaches intolerance and hate

I thought they included a christan pamphlet.Isn't that what Christmas is all about?

Or this blog.samaritanspurse.org/every-shoebox-plants-a-seed/

Fortunately not, lola, assuming your definition of Christmas doesn't involve specifically targeting Muslim-majority countries, being vocally pejorative about other religions, and viewing the donation of some plastic tat as a priceless opportunity for aggressive evangelisation to young children in developing countries.

What? I don't get the problem.They give out the boxes to the excited and grateful children along with the godpel booklet.They are then invited to learn more? How is this so terrible? Where is the coercion? How can enyone decide whether or not to follow Christianity if no one tells them about it.I have no religious alliances myself, but I have made that decision from a position of informed choice.You sound as though they should not even be given the chance to explore a religions if that is what they want to do.

I have just googled Samaritans purse and all that comes up are about work they have done helping stop trafficking and airlifting supplies to refugees!

Because these children live in countries that have cultures and religions of their own. The religion may even be Christianity but just not practised in the toxic evangelical right-wing style of the Grahams.

But if you are a poor child having a crap time, this is a religion that lands out of nowhere bringing the gift of plastic tat and consumerism in return for you turning up at their church.

It's not building a well, or a hospital, or introducing eco-friendly farming or anything else that might be a useful form of aid. Just an alien Islamophobic, homophobic, misogynistic belief system in return for seeing the West as the source of presents.

Lola, I'm not going to derail the thread to discuss Operation Christmas Child, especially as the arguments are widely available elsewhere, on and off Mn, where they've been thrashed out annually for years.

But if you're Googling, important to be able to distinguish between an organisation's own publicity and objective takes on its work and the homophobia, misogyny and anti-Islamic thinking of its founder. Lots of British schools and organisations agree - the South Wales fire service has stopped letting its stations be used as depots for OCC, ditto the Co-Op, and a lot of schools now choose different charities, including Christian charities who don't evangelise.

Surely it's not difficult to see how badly schools participating in OCC contravenes government guidelines to promote the values of tolerance and respect for other faiths in schools, including 'an acceptance that people having different faiths or beliefs to oneself (or having none) should be accepted and tolerated, and should not be the cause of prejudicial or discriminatory behaviour'.

humanism.org.uk/humanism/humanism-today/humanists-doing/good-causes-and-charities/samaritans-purse/

usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-05-05-graham05_ST_N.htm

sites.google.com/site/occalert/downplayed-evangelism-1

www.mrc.org/biasalerts/cbs-morning-blames-cancellation-muslim-prayer-event-duke-franklin-graham

www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/10/religion.society

The Father Christmas reality issue strikes me as a good time to start teaching children to practice religious tolerance.

So, it is fine not to believe, and it is fine for that to be "true" and thus by extension other people's beliefs to be "false" - but it is still....a bit of a social faux pas....to march up to the people who believe differently and start being all "your traditions are all lies and you are WRONG".
There is a long distance between "not lying" (about what you believe) and active evangelism about your beliefs to others.

I don't think that the OP is being unreasonable because it sounds as if her daughter is on the right side of the line in terms of finding a balance, but it does annoy me when people are very proud of their children for the sort of behaviour that makes other evolutionary biologists disown Richard Dawkins.

"So, it is fine not to believe, and it is fine for that to be "true" and thus by extension other people's beliefs to be "false" - but it is still....a bit of a social faux pas....to march up to the people who believe differently and start being all "your traditions are all lies and you are WRONG"."

Just wondering where you saw anyone on this thread suggesting doing that would be a good idea. The nearest seems to be the suggestion that a 7 year old even suggesting that she doesn't believe is a precocious little shit.

Oh, incidentally, Christisns tend to get quite cross if people draw parallels between God and Father Christmas......

I suppose OCC is pretty innocuous when you consider the ways the Christians stole Xmas from the pagans.

They don't call the age of 7 upwards the 'age of reason' for nothing.

Seriously, if my kids get to around 9 or so and are still believing, I won't tell them but will gently test their critical reasoning approaches by asking 'so how does he get round to all the children in the world' 'how do the reindeer fly without wings' etc. Just to get them to question for themselves.

I wouldn't see believing past that age as anything to be proud of.

Christmas is still just as special afterwards, and older siblings can keep the delusion alive for younger ones.

Godalmighty, the whole Santa thing is supposed to be fun! Fun, people! I grew up in the 60s/70s and Santa coming was a huge excitement when there were like, 3 channels on TV, and you'd only just got a colour set. You don't have to buy into the Elf on the shelf shite, if you don't want to. I have lovely memories of Christmas Eve and the preparations for Santa. I wanted the same for my children, and why should anyone else's parenting decision spoil mine?

I'm educated to masters level, so I don't think believing in Santa until I was 9 was any reflection on my critical thinking abilities.

It's not up to the 7 year old either to come up with a rationale; you tell your child Santa isn't real, you tell them to keep it to themselves.

Touchmybum (great name by the way!) - you have worded it perfectly, exactly what I was trying to say but much better. It's a bit of fun and it makes me feel really sad that people would happily upset other people for absolutely no reason other than they don't agree with you. Luckily, I am fairly confident that the lovely people in my son's school are capable of allowing him to believe for as long as he wants

I'm educated to masters level, so I don't think believing in Santa until I was 9 was any reflection on my critical thinking abilities.

That depends on the subject and the university

shoebox schemes are a bad way to give aid. However well-meaning supporters of such schemes may be, the schemes are not good value for money, they waste resources, don’t meet local needs or help solve local problems, and don’t support the local economy

They are not supposed to do any of those schemes.they are not trying to compete with Red Cross et al.their idea is different .It is to to give children the pleasure of having a few little gifts.

It's to bribe impoverished children to join their church of hate. Do you know anything about the Graham's? They make Donald Trump look normal.