To not punish my daughter for answering honestly/telling the truth (Father Christmas related)

[iProcrastinate]

To cut a long story short! My DD(7.5) hasn't believed in Father Christmas for a couple of years, we never made a big deal about this and I just let her make her own mind up. We still do a Santa letter, and leave out a mince pie with the stocking, that's tradition; and you'll struggle to find a kid who loves Christmas as much as she does! I won't bore you with why we don't make a big deal over it!

DD is under strict instructions NOT to go around telling other children that he isn't real. I don't think that she would, But she has also been taught that to lie is wrong......

So DD and her class have recently moved into Yr3 at school, so they share a play ground with the older kids. DD and a friend of hers were asked, by an older child, do they think Father Christmas is real. DD answered no. That night I got a furious message from the mother of the friend, saying that DD could have 'ruined their Christmases', but fortunately she has managed to 'repair the damage', and could I reprimand DD. I apologised but said that I would speak to her about this but not punish her. She answered honestly.

AIBU not to punish her? At what age do kids start questioning the Father Christmas thing? Surely it must be a hot topic of conversation at this age? DD can't be the only 7yr old out there who doesn't believe.

Sorry. An 11 year old who believes in Father Christmas does not understand how critical thinking works.

Or, more likely, an adult who thinks an 11 year old believes in Father Christmas doesn't know how critical thinking works!

"I would fucking kill the person who tells my child that there is no Santa"

I wonder if Father Christmas knows he causes so much rage?

Well, our opinions differ then, Bertrand.

That's perfectly fine. It's a lesson which needs to be learned by adults and children alike.The point is whether or not we choose to be unkind with it.

I don't believe OP's DD was by the way.

I don't think it's a sign of anything except how important labelling is to some parents. So there are those who laud their DCs as critical thinkers whilst others value imagination and shared traditions.
These threads always turn into a chamber of confirmation bias but I don't think there is any correlation between belief in FC (or lack of belief in FC) and how DCS process information.
It's all pointless point scoring - like FF vs BG but with more tinsel.

FF vs BF

That's not how critical thinking works.

Although looking at the Tory govt/Brexit/Trump results, perhaps (some? many?) people do learn to switch off their critical thinking when there's a fantastically unrealistic belief system available. (Is Santa going to destroy civilisation?! )

"So there are those who laud their DCs as critical thinkers whilst others value imagination and shared traditions."

I'm not lauding or valuing either. I am just saying that a child of any age who believes in the reality (rather than the shared traditions and the pleasure of pretend games) of Father Christmas is not yet good at critical thinking. The two positions are simply incompatible. That's not a criticism. It's just a statement. The only people I have a problem with on here are the "precocious little shit" "I'd want to kill anyone who told my child" group, who seem a little over invested- to say the least. And I would also have a problem with anyone who deliberately spilled the beans, particularly to a young child.

Some children have stronger imaginations/inner worlds than others and the wonderful thing about them is they choose when to use their critical thinking to fit that.

Eh? Imagination is producing a mental image of something that you haven't experienced.No child has even seen santa's sleigh zooming round the world at the speed of light, or him coming down their chimney (always wondered how he is supposed to get up again!) Every child, believer or non-believer, has seen a gazillion pictures/cartoons of it though. I can't see how 'imagination' come s into it at all.A believing child cannot apply logic to every situation yet.That isn't 'imagination' that is gullibility. People bang on about 'wonder' and 'magic' but they are just euphemisms for ignorance.

People bang on about 'wonder' and 'magic' but they are just euphemisms for ignorance.

That would make a great meme.

Oh, "wonder" isn't a euphemism for ignorance! Wonder is exactly how we should feel when we look at the real life world about us. You can be filled with wonder and delight but not suspend critical thinking.

A well known quotation about gardens and fairies comes to mind.

I never realised that the belief went on for so long. Where I am, in Liverpool, it tends to be around six, max.

As for critical thinking, I consider myself quite good at that.

I still don't sleep with an open wardrobe door, look into a mirror when alone at night, or stick my feet out of the covers, incase something grabs it.

People don't work that simply, great scientists do ridiculous things for the sake of their religion, for example.

Really intelligent people can still be bigoted etc.

Why is belief in Father Christmas so important?
I don't mind the whole thing but it is just a daft fairy story. It surely doesn't matter much either way if children believe or not.
My kid has never been too invested but then neither am I.

I think when I was a child (born 1970) that the average age for stopping believing was 6 -6.5 and my mum says in her day younger than that. So I wonder if the age is rising, and if so, why?

"As for critical thinking, I consider myself quite good at that.

I still don't sleep with an open wardrobe door, look into a mirror when alone at night, or stick my feet out of the covers, incase something grabs it."
The point is, you know you're being irrational!

People don't work that simply, great scientists do ridiculous things for the sake of their religion, for example.

Well, not, they don't, very often. Political ideology, yes. Religion, no

"So I wonder if the age is rising, and if so, why?"

Because that way people can sell us more stuff for longer.

I have a 21 year old. Since she was born, there has been been a positive explosion of Christmas stuff that simply didn't exist before. Christmas jumpers and pajamas, Elves on Shelves, Lapland trips, more and more elaborate advent calendars.....and this year a shop near us is selling special hand made wooden "heirloom" Christmas Eve boxes. All ways of making parents, specifically mothers, feel guilty. Hence the appallingly heightened emotions and investment in "magic"

Kennington - it's important to me because children are only children for such a short time. They have a whole lifetime of reality ahead of them and I love that for a few short years they get to believe in magic and be able excited by it. I personally love that my children live in a fantasy world.

I think to each their own, if you don't want your kid to believe then fine but I do have a problem with people saying on the one hand that they shouldn't have to parent according to others wishes and then on the other hand it's not a problem for children to ruin it for others as that is going against how that child's mum and dad wish parent. Is telling the truth about absolutely everything so important that they are happy for their kid to upset someone? You don't have to agree with it but you don't have to purposely upset someone either, seriously what is wrong with some people

I think 7 is still quite young, I was 8 and the youngest of my siblings to work it out and round here I'd say it's more 9 or 10 from what I've heard. I agree though that the op's daughter didn't really do anything wrong in answering a question and think you did the right thing op in just reminding her of other people's feelings.

For the person who said why shouldn't she have said she knew it wasn't real and she'd been told so if she had of wanted to, my answer would be because it's spiteful to deliberately upset someone just because you don't agree with the way things are done at there home. It's sad that apparently the op's 7 year old child is more able to see that than a grown woman

Because that way people can sell us more stuff for longer.

Exactly, As I seem to keep saying on these threads, the toy and electronics industries have a vested interest in children continuing to believe in FC until an insanely advanced age, because (at least in in the majority of homes where FC brings the 'big presents' rather than just a stocking), it makes it much harder for poorer parents to tell children they can't afford something expensive, because, after all, Santa is bringing it, Mummy and Daddy aren't shelling out, so why not ask for that crazily expensive thing...?

All that fuzzy FC 'magic' has a hefty price tag, which we shouldn't forget.

And to go back to a point being made much earlier, I do wonder about what kinds of ethnic/cultural/religious contexts these parents shrieking about other people's children puncturing the Santa balloon are living in. Are these people living in areas with very little diversity?

Because my DS only started school this September, and in a little village school, but because we're not far from a very diverse city, there are Sikh, Hindu, Muslim and Jewish children in his class, some of whom don't celebrate Christmas - and without anyone making a big deal of it, DS gets that not everyone does FC, the same way not everyone does Diwali.

I imagine that if an older child told him FC wasn't real, he wouldn't be that bothered, but would file it under the 'some people believe...' approach we've always taken with religion. Which seems perfectly reasonable, and doesn't involve trying to police other people's children's behaviour at a remove.

Frazzledmum- do you really think it should be a 7 year old's responsibility to support adult's parenting choices?

And I do find it fascinating that none of the true believers have addressed the issue of how their older children deal with the fact that Father Christmas gives better presents to better off children, and none at all to children in, say, refugee camps.

Find it as fascinating as you like BertrandRussel but, 'newsflash', we don't HAVE to answer your 'questions'. Why would anyone bother when your goal in this is to be condescending, accuse others of lying and generally be pretty offensive.

Perhaps we should tell the school that they're wrong about her critical thinking scores and the fact that she chooses not to think too hard about something fun like Santa means all her other results are wrong.

I am TELLING you she still believes in Santa. Choose to believe me or not, I really don't give a fuck, but stop accusing me of being in denial or lying. It's really pissing me off now.

"Find it as fascinating as you like BertrandRussel but, 'newsflash', we don't HAVE to answer your 'questions'. Why would anyone bother when your goal in this is to be condescending, accuse others of lying and generally be pretty offensive. "
Of course you don't.

But I haven't accused anyone of lying or been offensive. Condescending? I hope not, but as it's a value judgement I can't say.

No not at all, it's the parents responsibility to teach their children that just because you do not believe in something or celebrate it, doesn't mean you have to ruin it for others. To answer honestly 'I don't believe' is fine, my problem is with kids who actively seek out to ruin it for others and their parents who don't care. And yes, I believe a 7 year old would be capable of understanding that basic level of diplomacy.

I think you are also thinking of it too much as an adult. I'm not sure many children think about what the rest of the world gets from Santa. We say he only brings stocking gifts and the others are from friends and family. Other people say he brings everything and so he gets them much bigger gifts but my kids have never questioned that. If they do there are ways round it like saying he agrees with adults what to bring or the adults pay him. Why can't they just be allowed to believe without having to overthink it? If they are asking those sorts of questions anyway then perhaps they are close to discovering the truth and that's fine but my point is you can explain to a child that someone else still believes and it's nice not to ruin it for them- my 5 year old could grasp that concept if needed so a 7 year old should be able to

Oh and we tried the elf thing last year but my then 4 year old didn't really fall for it we could tell. He happily went along with it for the sake of his then 2 year old sister though and just enjoyed the fact it meant he got a gift Xmas eve!