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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Can you be friends with a racist?

254 replies

AteRiri · 13/11/2016 11:44

Is your political view separate from friendships?

OP posts:
ARumWithAView · 13/11/2016 20:59

ArumWithAView...if you read my earlier post, I said that rather than shunning, you should try open discussion and proper debate instead as that's how change actually happens.

How long do you give it before you accept that this person doesn't want to come round to your opinion? That there's no middle-ground between 'all humans are equal' and 'this group of people subhuman filth'?

Agree to disagree until next time?

If change was purely dependent on rational discussion and debate, then some crucial civil rights battles would never have been won, or even fought.

It's Karl Popper's 'paradox of tolerance': if you're endlessly tolerant to intolerant beliefs, then the tolerant viewpoint is inevitably eroded and destroyed, and so we should '...claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant'. IMO that includes telling people that you no longer want to socialize with them, because their views are hateful and distressing.

Original poster
AteRiri · 15/11/2016 06:32

Found this article that sums up how I am feeling.

OP posts:
MissMargie · 15/11/2016 06:44

I think it's human nature to mix with those who are like you.

I'm working/middle class - I dont' try to push my way into the Dorchester for an evening out, nor do I stroll through the local mosque for something to do.

Loving everyone else is a luvvy fantasy. You love people you have got to know, so that is unlikely to be someone who doesn't speak your language, it is unlikely to be someone whose beliefs are that women should stay in the home (whether that's due to religious beliefs or due to a macho or 1950s attitude) when you work full time and have a SAHDH.

I am sick of the racist mud slinging rhetoric. More common sense would be good.

ForalltheSaints · 15/11/2016 07:05

No, assuming you know their views, which in many cases I suspect you do not.

Bananabread123 · 15/11/2016 07:08

Loving everyone else is a luvvy fantasy.

It depends what you mean by 'love'. If you mean a strong emotional connection, then yes, i agree, we can't have that with everyone.

However, if we only felt compassion or empathy towards those we 'loved', and if that's the 'luvvy fantasy' you are describing then that would be a big problem and I disagree with you... if we all felt like this we would end up in a plethora of hostile tribes without common humanity towards each other.

OohhItsNotHoxton · 15/11/2016 07:13

No. I can't.

FameNameGameLame · 15/11/2016 07:43

If the fashion is to only offer friendship to people who align with your views then it is very understandable that there are people who are surprised about the latest political developments.

If you create a sterile social circle full of only likeminded people then how would you have any true idea about the world around you. Your empirical evidence is based on a biased sample!

Many people used to be racist. Why do you think they changed? (Hint: it wasn't because they were ostracised.)

Evergreen17 · 15/11/2016 07:45

Nope nope no. Harder to avoid when they are family though. A lot harder

lostoldlogin2 · 15/11/2016 08:44

I couldn't be friends. But down cut them off. Engage and re-educate. Otherwise nothing changes. See trump.

I say this as a woman with a VERY racially mixed family.

hungryhippo90 · 15/11/2016 09:05

No, I couldn't. To harbour racist views, in my opinion shows a complete ignorance, which would filter through to other parts of their life.
I meant articulate what I feel, but no way could I be friends with someone who had the lack of insight to understand that someone's skin colour does not make them a lesser person, in any way, shape or form.

With a person who holds racist views, it would make me wonder not only how they could think that way, but what the reprocussions would be of these beliefs? Inequality for those of the race that person doesn't like? Does this mean if someone of said race REALLY needed help, that they would just stand by? .... I couldn't be friends with someone who would inflict that on anyone else, because of the colour of their skin.

tabulahrasa · 15/11/2016 09:10

"If the fashion is to only offer friendship to people who align with your views"

But it's not about aligning views, I have friends who aren't interested in politics at all, I have friends who have completely different political views from me...but there's no way I could be friends with someone who had views that I found abhorrent...

Work with, be reasonably polite aquaintances yes, but not friends.

BertrandRussell · 15/11/2016 09:39

"Many people used to be racist. Why do you think they changed? (Hint: it wasn't because they were ostracised.)"

Well it sure as hell wasn't because people told them their views were all just a matter of opinion, and their opinions deserved respect just like anyone else's............

QueenofallIsee · 15/11/2016 09:49

I couldn't be friends with an overt racist, it would be a deal breaker for me.

When I have found myself challenging people who express views that I find racist or distasteful, in the main the attitude in question stems from ignorance and unrecognised white privilege. You can educate the ignorance, but as racism is illogical & based on the irrational, that is much harder to challenge - someone who suscribes to such views is not someone who shares my values. While I would try to challenge a view from a friend and say why, I am not giving head space and time to reprogramming the extreme - I would cut them off and tell them why

Original poster
AteRiri · 15/11/2016 10:06

There was a quote here before, something along the lines of not changing her fashion based on the current mood...apparently said by a celebrity. Does anyone remember?

OP posts:
ElizabethHoney · 15/11/2016 10:34

First instinct is that I wouldn't be close friends with someone who was outright racist.

But then I think of one woman I used to be very close to, who was generally lovely and would go out of her way even to help those from the races she was prejudiced about... but who had views which were nevertheless racist.

She thought that black people were lazy (she was black herself!), thought that Nigerians weren't trustworthy, that white Europeans were hypocritical, that white Americans were insincere, and much more.

Doesn't sound lovely, I know. But she knew she was generalising and therefore didn't treat people differently because of their race, and was kind and generous and loving even to people she'd only just met, from any race. Didn't change her overall views though!

So yes, I could be close to someone with racist prejudices, but not to someone who behaved in a racist or hateful way.

Bananabread123 · 15/11/2016 10:45

Many people used to be racist. Why do you think they changed? (Hint: it wasn't because they were ostracised.)

Very good point... It's difficult to hate someone you know personally (if they are a decent person). Prejudice is built on considering people as 'other', building them into monsters if left unchecked.

That's true of racism, but also true of those with views we might consider racist. We should seek to actively engage those from other backgrounds and perspectives - most people who are racist are not monsters (even if we consider their racist views monstrous). I'm not suggesting that we should all have racist best friends, but engagement and understanding is better than ostracism - whilst maintaining and communicating your own viewpoint - even with those with some racist views.

FameNameGameLame · 15/11/2016 11:23

Don't walk behind me; I may not lead.
Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow.
Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Albert Camus

DotForShort · 15/11/2016 13:11

"I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year's fashions." Lillian Hellman, a brilliant playwright, addressed to the House Committee on Un-American Activitites during the McCarthy era of US history.

mum2Bomg · 15/11/2016 13:23

No. I wouldn't be able to tolerate racism. And for me politics is completely different to racism.

ARumWithAView · 15/11/2016 13:32

Many people used to be racist. Why do you think they changed? (Hint: it wasn't because they were ostracised.

Do you mean many people around today were formerly racist, or that racism used to be more prevalent in previous generations?

Either way, it's probably not that important a point. Within living memory, racism used to be built into many countries' laws and institutions. It wasn't until 1967 that laws against interracial marriage were removed in every American state; apartheid in South Africa didn't end until 1994. If the framework you live in is racist, then it's not surprising that racism was accepted as the default, self-evident position.

It took more than polite debate to repeal those laws. (Even participating in a debate is a privilege. How can you reason with someone who believes you're subhuman? Nothing you say has any value, and that's if you're allowed to open your mouth in the first place.)

But the point is that many of these laws and frameworks don't exist any more, at least in the UK and US. We all have access to a near-infinite range of information. It's a choice to be racist, not the default.

Apart from naive and sanctimonious, the idea that extending friendship with outright, steadfast racists might somehow have a good influence on them is very patronising. You think that they'll discover the error of their ways, purely because you're prepared to talk it through with them? Is it an equal discourse? Do you think, if they're reasonable and convincing enough, you might come around to their racism? No, that would (hopefully) never happen. But then maybe you shouldn't assume that their views are pliable enough to change when someone with better judgement comes along and deigns to 'engage' with them.

FameNameGameLame · 15/11/2016 13:37

I don't want to offend you because this is obviously very important to you and close to your heart. I hear what you're saying but as long as you talk in absolutes I will always disagree with you.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 15/11/2016 13:45

I couldn't remain friends with someone who expressed overtly racist views. I think that level of hate and ability to compartmentalise and "other" groups of people would put me off them. It suggests to me a narrowness of thinking that stereotypes people and looks for simplistic solutions to problems - like council house scenario above - assuming immigrants get priority when they don't.

Also I am married to someone from a different race & religion so I couldn't be friends with someone who thought DH was a lesser being.

We all have unconscious bias so we all have some prejudices. It is something we all have to be aware of and I'm sure we all getting wrong from time to time. Its actively chosen conscious bias that I struggle with.

DotForShort · 15/11/2016 13:50

I very much doubt that Camus ever said, "Don't walk behind me. . ." Hmm The quotation may have been attributed to him, but it certainly doesn't sound like Camus to me.

ARumWithAView, your posts on this thread are brilliant. I would "like" them all a la Facebook if I could.

BertrandRussell · 15/11/2016 14:00

Blimey. Camus seems to have dumbed himself down a bit............

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 15/11/2016 14:07

The earliest version of "Camus" quote seems to have appeared in the 1970's in English. Which is interesting given Camus died in 1960 and wrote in French.