To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

One of the themes of this thread has been, how can we have useful discussions about real issues, if people simply retreat behind dogma and refuse to acknowledge inconvenient facts or other people's lived experience?

And here you are, doing just that.

I predicted at the time the cuts started, that shortly the blame would move on and the disabled would transform from being scroungers causing the country's ills, to poor victims of conniving foreigners. It's a well-worn path.

Oh very much a New Labour thing, Justanotherlurker.

Ditto the privatisation of the NHS. It's why the Health and Social Care Act 2012 went through so promptly and easily. Labour skinned it, the Tories cooked it.

I wondered who would arise claiming to be The Opposition. Given neither of the main parties seemed to want the position.

Makes a lovely vacuum for someone to march in and promise the earth (without, of course, having to deliver), whose only qualification is they aren't any of the previous shower.

*Oh! He called illegal Mexican immigrants rapists, criminals and drug traffickers. That's alright then.

I think this is a problem with what the op was alluding too, I have not found any confirmed quote that he actually called illegal immigrants rapists etc, the context is there to see, but the "left" ignored that and extrapolated it to mean all, something which they refuse to acknowledge when describing large parts of northern England and even trump supporters as white supremacists.

Doublethink at best.*

The poster I was responding to was the one that said Trump was talking about illegal immigrants. I don't think anyone extrapolated it to mean all. They didn't have to. It is bad enough on it's own surely?

But if you want to see the actual footage about that particular quote have a look and make up your own mind:

news.sky.com/story/five-insults-donald-trump-has-fired-at-mexicans-in-the-presidential-race-10559438

(from the notoriously left-wing Sky News owned by 'Red' Rupert Murdoch.)

Pluto, how about her apparent comments to Paul Fray. Or catastrophically barking description of being under sniper fire. I loathe Trump too, but the idea that she is more moral is dubious at best. I wish it bloody wasn't. Let's not even mention her apparent attitude towards her lovely husbands alleged victims, or even the husband supporting comments pre Monica admissions.
Women who believed these to be true still voted for her.
If only Bernie had not been shafted.

3. Do you believe that any left wing people voted leave?

(Sorry if this has already been mentioned)

"Britain will see a united left-wing campaign to exit the EU on 23 June. A number of groups, including the Socialist Workers Party, the RMT union, the Communist Party and Counterfire, agreed yesterday, Wednesday, to launch #Lexit: The Left Leave campaign."

socialistworker.co.uk/art/42550/Launch+of+united+left+campaign+to+leave+the+EU

Yep, I was going to mention her blatant lie about being under sniper fire.

Agree about Bernie. Unfortunately it was made impossible for him by the DNC/Clinton team. He would've been a far more formidable opponent for Trump, I think.

Pluto let's check those facts:

Called black people super predators???

*What she said in a 1996 speech was "They are often the kinds of kids that are called superpredators — no conscience, no empathy" she was pointing out how unfair the comment was.

Supported building a wall along the Mexican border back in 2005???
Building a wall is not racist. Building a wall to keep out rapists might be

Made anti-semitic comments in her emails???
HRC was critical of Israel - not the same as being antisemitic.

Supported incarceration policies that have seen a disproportionate number of black people imprisoned???
So had virtually every elected official in the US

Gave rise to the rumour that Obama is a Muslim???
Trump started this story. It is not true.

Hiring black people to turn up at Trump rallies to cause disruptions/violence???
Hired by Democrat officials no links to Clinton

All my facts about Trump being racist are facts. Not rumors, smears or half truths.

This is where I am accused of being patronising. Just because you think something is obvious, or true, or common sense doesn't mean it is.

As I said before you can accuse Hilary of being a crook but she is not racist.
The French in 2002 'the crook or the fascist' to the French left it was a clear choice they made the right decision.

“It will be refreshing to have a classy, beautiful, dignified First Lady in the White House. I’m tired of seeing a ape in heels”

Officials in West Virginia.

Yep it's the left again with their outrageous comments. Oh no it's not.

Trump started this story. It is not true.

Please provide evidence Trump started this.

Hired by Democrat officials no links to Clinton

When you make a claim it's good manners to check it yourself, but here you go.

"Trump has repeatedly claimed that Clinton began the whole issue in the first place. Trump said "Hillary is a birther" in February 2015 at CPAC, tweeted that "she was all in" in September 2015, and said "she brought it up years before it was brought up by me" on CNN in May 2016. The morning of his press conference, Trump brought it up again on Fox Business.

PolitiFact and our friends at FactCheck.org and the Washington Post Fact-Checker have debunked this zombie claim multiple times

There is no evidence that Clinton or her 2008 campaign ever floated the theory. While Clinton supporters circulated the allegations the last time she ran for president, they had no ties to either the candidate or her staff."

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/16/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/

Hiring black people to turn up at Trump rallies to cause /violence???

The only point made by Pluto30 that bears any scrutiny is this. To be honest I haven't got time to check all your 'facts' for you. You shouldn't type it unless you have checked it. I will look into it and get back to you - or I could listen to internet rumour and make something up.

"It will be refreshing to have a classy, beautiful, dignified First Lady in the White House. I’m tired of seeing a ape in heels”

Now that is racist - a disgusting comment. Of course some Trump supporters are unabashed racists and his rhetoric appealed to them - one of the reasons I wouldn't have voted for him. But unrefined and direct as they were, Trump's actual comments were not in this league.

Building a wall is not racist. Building a wall to keep out rapists might be

Wouldn't it be more racist to build a wall to keep everyone out than to keep rapists out?

HRC was critical of Israel - not the same as being antisemitic.

She wasn't talking about Israel in the emails. She was talking about Jews (within the US).

Trump started this story. It is not true.

False, again. It was started by the Clinton camp in 2008 when they approved a story to go to the media including the "Obama is a Muslim thing". The entire article was aimed at smearing Obama, but it was the first time the Obama is a Muslim thing came out. I've said this before. It's in the Podesta emails. You can choose to keep your head in your ass and not read them for yourself, or you can read them for yourself and realise that it was absolutely fucking nothing to do with Trump.

Hired by Democrat officials no links to Clinton

Um. Just how do you figure this to be true?

Here's the full quote from the superpredator speech:

"Just as in a previous generation we had an organized effort against the mob. We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels, they are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called superpredators — no conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first, we have to bring them to heel."

Doesn't sound to me like she's admonishing the people calling them super-predators.

Pluto - "all of these things are supported by evidence"

You saying it, doesn't make it evidence!

Why not provide your "evidence"

“I have black guys counting my money. … I hate it,” Trump told John R. O’Donnell, the former president of Trump Plaza Hotel & Casino, according O’Donnell’s account in his 1991 book “Trumped!” “The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day.”

So Trump is only being a little bit racist and a tiny bit antisemitic. Well that's OK then.

Trump says this and it can be justified by some people. The left are 'patronising' and they are responsible for all the ills in society.

Please excuse the hyperbole, the comment about Michelle Obama has really pissed me off.

Read the Podesta emails. That's the evidence I'm talking about.

Emails that involve Hillary Clinton, coming from her camp. The very same batch of emails that they realised were incriminating, so they thought they'd delete them, and then when told to hand them over to the State Dept, admitted - again in emails - that they kept a USB of emails from the State Dept. It's literally all there. You, too, can read them if you'd like to step down off your podium and do some digging.

And I'm not saying Trump isn't racist. I'm saying that HRC is by no means better.

I've only found 'Trump aide blames Clinton for birther campaign'. Is that your source?

Jews in America overwhelmingly voted for 'the anti-semitic' Hilary. How silly of them.

Pluto30 -

Re super preditors comment - the whole speech makes it clear I'm sure you've read it and are just being disingenuous. Anyway, it is not the unambiguously racist comment you implied it was. She was quoting what others say not saying it herself. Big difference.

Antisemitism - I've had another search and I can find evidence of Hillary being anti-Israel. Some DNC emails were antisemitic but not ones to or from Hilary.

Obama birther rumour - please see the fact check above referencing 3 credible fact check sites. I would like a link to your source please, I might be wrong and I like to check.

The last point - I am going to check it. After I have looked at some interesting 'moon in green cheese shock' stories.

While I'm here anything you would like to say about the Michelle Obama comment?

Pluto30 thankyou for providing that clear link to the point you were making.

Oh you didn't.

Am I on my podium? While I'm here why don't you hurl some more insults or is that my job as I am on the left?

That Steve bannan fella sounds nice though, eh.

birdybirdy I have just exploded in a shower of irony.

Yep Stevie boy is going to prove all my points for me. The left really patronising. The right total fucking idiots. Who would you choose?

It is absurdly shit.
.

You lefties! Don't you realise you need to start wearing your sack clothes and ashes and take responsibility for everyone who is odious in this world. Yes it's your fault that racist mysogonists are taking control.

They can't control themselves it's not their fault. They are just giving the peeps what they want.

I will give the cryptos one thing. They are amazing spin artists

Why would I go back through thousands of emails I've already read to find a link for you? You can do it yourself. You're not incapable.

The emails about Obama being a Muslim date back to the 2008 campaign when Hillary was running against Obama in the primary. They were contacted by a journalist who asked if he could get their approval to publish an article on "X number of things voter don't know about Obama". Included in that list was the first public reference to Obama being a "Muslim". They approved the article, it was published, and it went from there.

Actually, here's an article that discusses it:

therightscoop.com/wikileaks-emails-reveals-hillary-campaign-pushing-muslim-obama-narrative/

But you can find the original online if you really would like to. It was captured by Hillary's server, and she no doubt read it.

In fact, when questioned whether Obama was a Muslim later on, she said "to the best of her knowledge" he wasn't. Doesn't sound particularly confident, eh? Certainly not defending him, was she?

I don't know what Michelle Obama comment you're referring to. But I've already said I'm not disagreeing with your claims that Trump is a racist. I'm simply showing you that HRC is just as bad.