To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

There is plenty to criticise about Hillary. Insisting she is - as you said- as racist as trump is ridiculous. ...

Unless you think she would have appointed a white supremacist as strategist, her election would see a surge in race hate incidents and would have seen kkk rally's.

He has been consistently nasty about ethnic minorities and women. People are scared. It says so much about you that you are overlooking this.

Pluto30 - you can't reference your source. Basic skill in any debate.

You provide a link to an article discussing it.

I provided a link to three respected fact checking websites - one is the Washington Post the paper that uncovered Watergate. I am afraid I believe them not your spurious read it yourself nonsense.

After the demonization of Gary Liniker, the DM "Enemies of the People" headline, the insults hurled at Lilly Allen and people defending Trump why are people still blaming the left?

This thread started about an article that was not insulting, went on to discuss another article that may possibly have had one word in it that was insulting while the evidence against the far right stacks higher and higher.

Post truth indeed.

The disability cuts were planned well before the financial crash 2008.

Yes they were, and I was on Invalidity for several yrs myself. The finite pot I am talking about is all of the revenues collected by the Exchequer and used for a myriad of things to keep our society going. Local councils are not receiving what they need from central govt; mine is cutting even more services because the social burden bill is so high, definitely in my borough. The social bill has increased tremendously because of immigration to my area. No one can argue about that, because it's even in the Council report.

How you can view that positively absolutely escapes me.

As we are still EU members we cannot do anything about people moving into England after having received their papers in whatever EU country they were living in. Those that want to move to England under the Freedom of Movement nonsense, simply do so and add even more to the social burden.

The financial support & housing of any family that relocates to the UK is from the same pot of money that has to be used for everything else.

It says so much about you that you are overlooking this.

Righto.

Bitofacow I have no idea who Gary is, or what you're referring to with Lily Allen, so.

But here you go, the original email as leaked by Wikileaks, since you were apparently incapable of fact-checking beyond your own (obviously flawed) sites:

wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/7860

why are people still blaming the left?

It could be because No Borders people are party to not discouraging Mediterranean crossings, some proving fatal. Could be because they think that the pearls of wisdom that drop from well-known people are somehow going to sway the population. In fact, they will just see them as privileged tossers. The Left's involvement in the Calais camp was agent provocateur and getting the people fired up enough to attack police. What's that supposed to convey?

No genuine refugees I've known thru the ages ever did that. They did not have a feeling of entitlement, only gratitude that they had reached a safe country and were out of danger. My parents were refugees years ago. It is the Left's ideology that has instilled the notion of entitlement.

You guys are totally impractical and unrealistic. You continue to believe you can decant 1 litre into a pint pot.

Thanks for the Wikileak, Pluto.

Obama's father was a clever guy, but chaotic. He was indeed a muslim and as Barack was with him until age 10, being brought up as a muslim, doing prayers, attending mosque and participating in holy festivals is all part and parcel of his development. I don't know what he would call himself now, but the early life cannot be discounted.

Obama Snr already had a wife in Africa plus 2 kids, the marriage was not annulled so he married Obama's mother under false pretences. After he left, he moved on to to wife no. 3. Therefore it is the hard work and love of his mother that brought him to his first opportunity, and the rest was his.

That link is your evidence that Hilary is as racist as Trump?!

Wow.

All this slagging off of 'Lefties', is making me feel that I've gotta get out there and vote for the Left! Because that's the kind of vengeful simpleton I am. That's how I decide to vote!

I think the way this theory is gaining ground - the left are responsible for Trump vote and Brexit vote is yet another example of how people love simple soundbites, basic dumbed-down solutions to what are really are complex problems/situations.

Local councils are not receiving what they need from central govt;

Yep, the current central government slashed funding to all local government areas, citing the national economy (which is usually boosted by immigration).

So while the local areas with population changes (from internal movement or immigration) may have particular costs dealing with that, every area is now struggling to meet social care costs. Not just for the disabled but on a much larger scale for the rapidly ageing population. An age timebomb that's been worriedly discussed and then ignored for as many decades as I can remember, and which isn't going to go disappear by stopping immigration.

Still, at least my UK neighbours have done their bit, using free movement to emigrate and spend their unproductive retirement years costing the Spanish health system...

birdy I don't know what you'd call accusing someone of being a Muslim when they're not, if it's not racism. It was even said to be a negative thing in the email. Add to the list that they accused him of doing cocaine, which is an unfounded accusation at best.

Feel free to vote left. It won't stop people voting right.

----And it has the grand total of Fuck All to do with immigrants of any stamp. So excuse me if I don't redirect my legitimate anger about disability cuts towards some unemployed French bloke

pausing said the above, and I cannot believe that anyone has typed such a stupid remark. EVERY expenditure is interlinked, all governments departments' allocations are based on the money they have and which has to be spread as effectively as possible. if there is an excessive call on reserves from one quarter it will impact another.

My own GP told me that I should expect longer waiting times because a large number of people have joined his practice and the register is now full. I am on the Patient Group, so we know that these are not people moving house from, say, Suffolk to my area but rather immigrants from overseas, either EU or non-EU it does not matter.

Also on my local Neighbourhood Watch, and a Det Sgt has told us not to walk from the station to our homes (even two streets away) because of the rise in crime from certain ethnic groups. unpleasant to hear, does not fit your worldview - but that is what is going on. the police service has endured more cuts, when we need more police.

The Left's involvement in the Calais camp was agent provocateur and getting the people fired up enough to attack police.

I am totally confused by who is being talked about when people are saying 'the left', do you mean lefty media? The labour party? Random groups who associate with 'leftist' ideals?

Political ideologies are a huge spectrum, not everyone who considers themselves 'left' would agree with everything someone else who considers themselves 'left' believes quite the opposite mostly. Just as not everyone who considers themselves 'right' would agree with everything Oswald Mosley said.

It is even possible to hold views from both the right and left.

Divide and conquer.

Oxford And yet I've been told by people on this thread that my experience as a police officer "needs to be validated by statistics".

The fact is that crime is rampant in areas dominated by specific ethnicities. Some of the people on this thread have either been fortunate enough never to witness it firsthand, or just have their heads buried so far in the sand that they've got no idea what's going on.

Most of us are not anti-immigration, we are anti-uncontrolled immigration, and what has been happening over the last decade or so is out of control. Infrastructure, transport, education and health cannot keep up with the rapid increase in population. And I sure as shit don't think I, or any other police officers, should have to put up with increased crime rates by certain groups when there's no benefit to counteract it.

current central government slashed funding to all local government areas, citing the national economy (which is usually boosted by immigration)

It is boosted only if they are working. But most non-EU immigrants do not work. and those that are working are assisted tremendously from those who do pay their council tax by receiving rent support, their council tax payment is negligible so nothing is coming back to the local coffers. the help they receive cancels out income tax-NI they pay. it's a scandal.

I'm confused by people saying immigrants put a strain on services e.g. the NHS. IME immigrants often staff the NHS.

Of course people consume services, but it's people who provide services, and who work and pay taxes. The total number and origin of people in the country doesn't change this surely?

The cuts to Incapacity Benefit, now ESA, and DLA, now PIP were planned before 2008 and are not in response to either the banking crash or immigration.

These are the benefits for which disabled people are continually tested, the ones Southall was referring to when blaming some French guy.

It's a post facto justification of something successive governments have been doing anyway, to siphon money away from the disabled into tax breaks for the better off.

Pluto I've been told by people on this thread that my experience as a police officer "needs to be validated by statistics"

It's a nonsense of course, but this inability to accept what is going on - seen by your own eyes or the experience of someone you know - reminds me very much of cults. Intransigence, throwing in spurious statements DENYING what some posters have experienced, etc. When someone from a cult is presented with evidence, their reaction is to spit, snarl, deny and fight.

I personally do not care what type of politics people on here hold. I have no ideology, but what I am concerned about is this incessant denial, i.e. you are lying, that is not true, that did not happen to me, and the best one - PROVE IT. This suggests some posters are living a very protected life, hardly venturing outside; but thisr need to cling to an ideology - rather than clocking what's going on around them - is very troublesome and not objective. In order for an ideology to be sustained, the individual has to explain away the threads of reality that do impinge from time to time as something entirely different and caused by something other than it is.

It must be exhausting.

MsFloraPoste Those are working immigrants. I'm talking of those that do not work for years and years. Who do you think supports them? Pausing is referring to 'some unemployed French bloke'. He is in fact a Camerooni, now with French citizenship, 10 children who chose to move to England. No one in that family is working, and he wants a larger house (obviously).

OxfordStreet I can see its a problem if people don't work and contribute to the economy. But is there any reason to suppose immigrants are less likely to work? Surely someone who is sufficiently motivated to move a considerable distance in search of a better life is unlikely to be a total slacker?

'After the demonization of Gary Liniker, the DM "Enemies of the People" headline, the insults hurled at Lilly Allen and people defending Trump why are people still blaming the left?'

I think the patience of the general public is wearing thin and they have no time for Left Celebrity do-gooders.

They see do-gooders for what they are, earnest and naïve, who may mean well and want reform through wealth redistribution, world immigration, and spending other peoples' money, like they know best, but then they like to shove it down everyone's throat. They also have this annoying habit of misreading opposing views to be thick, racist and intolerant.

In fact I'm not sure do-gooders want to listen or want to know opposing views. It's like they've got ants in their pants and itching to shout racist if you're not with them. And when they do shout racist - it's like termination of that conversation. It's ended. Over and out.

Dissatisfaction all around.

MsFloraPoste You would think so, wouldn't you because you are a reasonable person. The EU people I am talking about were originally from outside of EU. They settled in France or Germany and are now EU. Many have never worked and chose to relocate to England, because that is allowable under EU law.

Some are simply unemployable, and do find work 'off the cards' still claiming benefit. They never become contributors. It's a fact of life.

The problem for England is that we are providing accommodation, benefits and services to a family where neither adult has ever worked in Europe and has no intention to work in England.

To explain - I use working EU people for my gardening, building, plumbing etc. They are working because they have a work ethic.

Pahahah! I wondered whether to post this earlier - and now you've answered it anyway.

I made a bet with myself that the French guy Southall was referencing was NOT some white Pierre Le Blanc from Amiens, but a black or Algerian Frenchman.

And lo.

I'm not psychic. I just know the Daily Mail's pattern of who it chooses to present for readers' opprobrium.

It does not matter, Pausing, whether it's the Daily Mail or a chap from Cameroon. His story was featured in the Guardian et al.

You are again deflecting from the kernel of a situation - which is: he has probably never worked while living in France. Decided he wants a change, came to England with wife and 10 kids, still not working.

WHO is supporting this family of 12?

Also, MsFloraPoste school places will have to be provided, plus special classes because of language difficulty. If the 10 kids do well in their studies, that will be free uni places for them, no loans to be paid back.

Pausing seems to be obsessed with colour (again), and cannot see the wood for the trees. I am concerned about taxpayers money being misused which impacts provision of services for everyone.

OxfordStreet I've now checked with the Migration Observatory website (not sure how to link from iPad) and there is slightly higher unemployment in the UK amongst foreign born workers than amongst UK born, but the difference is reducing. EU workers from outside the UK however have lower unemployment than UK nationals. So it's a complicated picture.

Inkanta I don't think everyone who supported Trump is racist (plus misogynist, etc). But Trump himself clearly is these things, and they didn't think it was enough of a problem not to vote for him. This is a worrying trend.

And how did do-gooder become an insult? If people want to do good (I would regard resisting racism as doing good) then that's, er, good, isn't it?