To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

Quite wait until the far right get in because of the lefts Inabilty to hold the centre ground

I very very worried but like I said at least they can pat themslefs of the back and say well we didn't compermise our far left polices

I voted Remain because I'm a Europhile. For me it was a stability vote. I am well off. I'm all right Jack. Immigration doesn't impact on me one whit. Imagine if your world is at rock bottom. Why wouldn't you vote for Brexit or Trump? You have nothing to lose.

So it's the lefts fault if the right takes over. Far left. ..is that the current tory party? Any way when did YouR family emigrate here. If immigration is so important to you please tell

Think you are co fusing far left with liberalism. So what is the right to you?

What the? I've just read all 18 pages and I'm totally confused by this thread. Who is this 'the left' goading all the poor people into voting right wing? Bloody bastards!

jelly
Tis all the lefts fault in the continuum of propoganda. This is the thing that concerns me. 'People' who can't remember we have a RW government. That don't know what the 70s 80s were like in THE UK. There us a current story that the rise of he RW is the LW fault hhhmmm. Who the he'll benefits from that?

Hell but you get my gist. The same views are on many threads

There us a current story that the rise of he RW is the LW fault hhhmmm. Who the he'll benefits from that?

That isn't a view that I'd put forward as as major factor. But it's not hard to see the logic. It's the same logic that makes us worry that children from overly strict households will rebel when they get half a chance - if people's behaviour or their opinions are suppressed (even if only by social pressure), they are likely to turn to a group who expresses those views.

So the idea is the left called those who were concerned about immigration racists. In the end the only politicians ready to speak against immigration were the racist ones. So those with legitimate and non-racist concerns were nudged towards the arms of racists.

I don't think it's even half the story. But it's far from ridiculous, and perfectly logical.

The Nation of Islam (a group whose leader, Louis Farrakhan, is notoriously anti-Jewish and called white people "devils") endorsed Obama. Does that make Obama a racist and/or a NOI supporter? Unless Trump praises the endorsement by the KKK how is he responsible for who supports him? Also, Trump's daughter is married to and has converted to Judaism (orthodox), so presumably he is going to be killing them when he goes after the Jews?Plenty of Islamists endorse Corbyn ergo, he is a racist/misogynist?

Is it the rights fault that they are the only ones that will listen to those in the middle concerns. No, they are loving it and taking every advantage they can. I have real concerns over corbyn, if it was a two ticket race between Farage and Corbyn I would be furious that I was put in that shitty position. Clinton v Trump -neither. What a choice.

It's about you have x amount of schools with c amount of places you bring more people into a area and then some are left with out places or left having to attend a school across town Ect

Is this an issue of EU immigration though? As mentioned before they only make up 3.6% of the UK population so it is difficult to see how the children of 3.6% can have such a big impact on school places. Granted, in some areas immigration is more concentrated, but that of course means in the majority of areas it is lower. Voting to leave the EU for this reason does seem misplaced to me.

I think we would see better results - ie if we want more school places - by pressing the government of the day to invest properly in education, than we would to leave the EU, which I honestly can't see having much of an impact on this issue. As an example, around here they closed two primary schools and built one new one. If we were getting any sort of value for the money we all put into the system (immigrants included) we wouldn't have this issue. Instead we are encouraged to blame each other for our poor resources while the government runs down and sells off our country from under us.

Can't raise any concern about immragtion with being a paid up member of the UKIP

Except you're the only person to say that or anything like it. It makes me question whether you are saying that as a means of silencing any debate or challenge to your own POV.

Someone of colour can be criticised for having concerns on current immigration policy because of their colour? Nice.

"So by implying immigrants lower educational standards is she being racist?"

Where in that question am I implying she is a member of UKIP or the BNP?
I am putting forward a point for discussion. Thefishwife went on to clarify her point, but initially she implied immigration lowered educational standards. There was then a discussion.

No insults were hurled and yet great offence was taken. The Left, it is claimed patronise people. I asked a genuine and valid question based on the information I had at the time.

We can't discuss immigration because when the issue is raised and discussed people who object to immigration refuse to be challenged. "Oh you are saying I am racist boo hoo".

That is clearly not what happened on this thread.

.....only make up 3.6% of the UK population so it is difficult to see how the children of 3.6% can have such a big impact on school places.

3.6% is 2.2m people... i have no idea how many of those are children but even if 10%, that's nearly quarter of a million extra children. With many, many schools already full it's not hard to see how that number of children would have an impact surely!

The parents of these children are net contributors to the economy so the government should be able to fund education.

The government does not fund education that is the issue not the immigration.

The government does not fund education that is the issue not the immigration

In a way this is true, but in reality, isn't it that there are two issues effecting school places - one is government policy/funding and one is immigration? The two interact, surely. So yes, if the government funded education better, the extra places needed could be provided. But they don't. So as it is a two factor issue, are voters wrong to want to address the other factor?

g immigrants lower educational standards is she being racist?"

Where in that question am I implying she is a member of UKIP or the BNP?
I am putting forward a point for discussion. Thefishwife went on to clarify her point, but initially she implied immigration lowered educational standards. There was then a discussion.

there is no post of mine were I implied that I rants have lower educational standards if you think I did please post the quote you can't because it didn't happen

Immigrants 🙂

3.6% is 2.2m people... i have no idea how many of those are children but even if 10%, that's nearly quarter of a million extra children. With many, many schools already full it's not hard to see how that number of children would have an impact surely!

That would mean an extra child in a class of 30. So yes, I think it's a fair point to question how big that impact is.

It's also interesting that you mention schools already being full. Doesn't that point clearly to government underfunding? If our schools are so precariously close to breaking point that one extra child is unacceptable then it would seem they wouldn't cope with local population fluctuations even if there were no immigrants at all.

So I say again, I think we would see better results demanding more of our government rather than blaming a tiny minority of people who are actually net contributors to the economy.

If the immigrant parents weren't helping the economy there wouldn't be as much money for education. So without the immigrants there would be no extra money. So far so circular.

However, immigrants contribute more than they take out of the economy.

So people see Polish children in a class and blame them because it is visible and easy. But the underlying issue is chronic underfunding due to the government taking the extra revenue provided by the immigrant parents and not spending it on education.

Obviously I am oversimplifying.

The point being the immigrants are visible but the issue is wider and deeper. People say "but I know what I see in hospitals/schools etc", and then people who support immigration say " it's not that easy " they are accused of being patronising. When really it is not that easy.

Bitofacow to come back to your questions yesterday

However, do you agree that a fair number of Brexit voters are racist?

I think there is a proportion of our society which is racist, some more rabidly so than others. I think some of these people will have voted leave. I also think a fair proportion will have voted remain because their concerns about the economic effects of leaving the EU and about any effects on their personal financial situation will have outweighed their wish to reduce immigration. I think it is difficult to say what the size if these two groups is but neither is very small.

I think there is a much larger number of people who have concerns about the UK having no control over immigration from the EU, with this concern not being racist in nature. I think there is a danger of getting into a slightly circular way of thinking here (not you cow but in general). Some remainers define wanting to control immigration as racist in itself, which I suppose is the premise of this thread. I don't think it is.

PT certainty says some Brexit voters are racist, but importantly, she doesn't say all of them are. I don't think the truth of this statement can be argued

I don't think she explicitly says it, but I think she implies it but I think we may have to agree to disagree on this.

If we agree some Brexit voters are racist what do we do?

As I say, it's not just leave voters. So what do we do? We continue to challenge racist speech and actions whenever they occur. We campaign and vote for non-racist policies. We encourage more open discussion of people's views and opinions and try to understand different experiences without shutting down debate as per the OP whilst challenging racist speech and actions. In other words challenge racism when it is demonstrated rather than assuming it is present because of stereotyped views about others' motivations.

"And I dare say uncontrolled Immigration will not seem a issue when you can afford to opt out of the local school and place your child in tiffin like seaums miles and you can afford to opt out of the NHS "

Thefishwife I read the above point to mean that immigration negatively affected local schools. To get a good education you had to move you child away from high immigrant communities. This is why some people have no issue with it because their children are not in schools with lots of immigrants.

My point was that schools in London have better results than the national average because of immigration.

If you can cater for 30 people you don't invite 70 it's basic maths

Absolutely, Fishe. Nor do you invite 70 hostiles either, who will refuse your delicious food and pee in your flower pots.

I say again if your having a party you invite the amount of people you can cater for that's it's

We have 10 thousand people on the housing list here but if you think it's a good idea to allow more people to come and have acesss to that housing list then fair enough but don't expect the people on the list who have been waiting for years to thank you

You have x number of school places and you want to invite more families to Coke and place there children in those schools while the left often have the option of putting there children in a grammer school or private if there not happy with the place offered we shall just suck up a school across town because there are no places locally

Immrgnts are not visible unless yu live in a larger white area I couldn't tell who is from were in my daughters school so I am not sure what you mean