for thinking this is demeaning?

[baconandeggies]

The word 'menial', as in "He has a menial job"

It seems a bit loaded to me... Implies it's "less important" and can be looked down upon. Surely it comes from the same root as demeaning anyway?

There's nothing wrong with having a more 'manual' job..

Reminds me that a flatmate once exclaimed "I'd never marry a man who had a menial job, like a dustbin man, or a cleaner or something"

Why not just say 'manual' job, if you must describe it as anything other than the actual job title.

So does describing someone's job as 'menial' sound judgey, or AIBU?

You cannot be serious. You cannot compare a surgeon and a bin man on any meaningful level. A surgeon is in an elite job because he/she is highly intelligent, highly educated, highly skilled, highly regarded and highly paid. That's quite a lot of attributes.

I'm not offended really, and don't have a chip on my shoulder... I'm just thinking through why the term feels wrong, to me.

I've said that obviously the skill sets of various roles are different, of course they are.. but that there's no benefit in labelling certain jobs as 'menial', as that means that they're shit. And what's good about that?

Better as defined objectively. In a room with a surgeon, an anaesthetist, a nurse and a cleaner - nobody is objectively 'better' than anyone else - they are all valuable roles. Obviously if you need surgery the surgeon is better etc etc

bacon at 19.50 you said that no 'job should have a value judgement attached to it'. Your words.

That probably would have been clearer if I'd said "negative* value judgement attached to it" !!

Apologies - and also for typos - am coming out of a migraine

a menial job is a job you don't need to focus on /think about while you're doing it, you can day dream or mentally do your shopping list while you go through the motions of physically getting the job done

It is not derogatory about the person doing the work, someone with a phd can do menial tasks, it just means physically working without having to focus all or most of your thoughts on it

I deliberately saught a "menial" job between DD1 and DD2, I did not want to be thinking about my job all the time, I wanted to clock on and clock off, maybe chat to my colleagues about the weather as I worked.

I don't find it offensive, because it is describing a type of task, not a type of person

needsahalo I believe it is a case of the exception proving the rule

Really? I know plenty of well off, educated people in menial jobs for a whole host of reasons. None of them lack ambition. They are not exceptions to anything.

"baconandeggies
Better as defined objectively. In a room with a surgeon, an anaesthetist, a nurse and a cleaner - nobody is objectively 'better' than anyone else - they are all valuable roles. Obviously if you need surgery the surgeon is better etc etc"

You are going nowhere with this. They are not all equally valuable roles.

Why not? Some jobs are really crap. Soul destroying. Mindless. Dead end. Earn a pittance.

Your analogy doesn't stand up. Surgeon, anaesthetist are on a par. Nurse is pretty high value. Cleaner? No, not so much. That's simply a fact. I don't think you help anyone by believing otherwise.

Why not? Some jobs are really crap. Soul destroying. Mindless. Dead end. Earn a pittance

But everything's relative and if somebody loves that job, to hear someone else describe it as menial is derogatory.

Your analogy doesn't stand up

The roles are different but each is valuable in its own way.

You are conflating two separate things. Nobody is objectively better than anyone else. This is true, but it's an utter nonsense to say the same for the roles they perform.
All jobs are not equal . Some are more important than others, it's a fact of life. An unpalatable one for you, apparently, but a fact none the less.

You are going nowhere with this. They are not all equally valuable roles

In a team of professionals who work together in different ways for the benefit of their patient; yes they are.

Valuable in their own way isn't the same as equally valuable.

Agreed Arfarfanarf, and my point is very specifically - there's no benefit in pointing out that cleaning is a more menial role.. and some risk of offense.

I can't believe I am asking this...sigh

So, OP, why - if the cleaner is as "valuable"as the surgeon - is s/he not paid the same rather large salary as the surgeon?

If the surgeon didn't do her job properly the patient almost certainly would die.

If the room wasn't clean the patient might die.

And it doesn't take years and a brain the size of a planet to become even a hospital cleaner. The surgeon could, if necessary, clean her own operating theatre. The cleaner, almost certainly if they were British, couldn't perform the surgery (I'll say nothing about the number of overqualified foreigners doing, yes, menial jobs in the UK).

Not and never will be of equal value. And I say this as someone who doesn't have a menial job but is equally light years from ever being a surgeon.

The point is not that the room doesn't need to be cleaned as much as the patient needs to be operated on.

The point is that anyone could clean the room whereas only a small percentage of people could do the operation.

The point, Arf, is that the surgeon; if they felt so inclined, could roll up their sleeves and scrub the theatre themselves. And indeed they probably do just that in developing countries.
You can swap roles downwards, not upwards. The surgeons contribution is only possible after 7+ years of hard study, it's not equal.

X posted with everyone...

I don't have a menial job, either, but I certainly know I could never become a surgeon. I also know I am not as important or as highly regarded as a surgeon. But that's fine. I don't feel threatened by this knowledge.

Actually, the point I made about overqualified foreigners does perfectly illustrate the word menial - if an asylum seeker who was a surgeon in their own country is now working as a hospital porter, that's certainly going from highly skilled to menial.

if the cleaner is as "valuable"as the surgeon - is s/he not paid the same rather large salary as the surgeon?

Of course because the surgeon has a more specialist and complex skill-set.

All the different roles in life are required and are valuable and important in order for society to function smoothly...

So what's the point in arguing about who is 'more valuable' and what benefit is there in referring to certain jobs in derogatory terms?

Sigh. One last time. The surgeon can do both the skilled and the menial job. The cleaner can't.

The cleaner can't operate on patients. The end. How difficult can it be to get this?

What is your job, OP?