To start a campaign to prevent clinics from offering "gender scans"

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I've been following the trans debate, both here and in RL and it strikes me that most of the disagreement and arguments stem from the language and words used.

One of the biggest misunderstandings is the way in which the word "gender" has become interchangable with the word "sex". And no one is more guilty of that than the clinics which offer "gender scans" during pregnancy.

They are not gender scans though, are they? They are scans to determine the external sexual organs of the foetus. Even a foetal blood test identifies the genetic sex of the baby, not the gender.

Is this misrepresentation? Telling a pregnant woman the "gender" of the baby they are carrying is impossible - surely it should stop? And just maybe, it would begin to resolve some of the conflict over the trans debate at the same time ?

I'm with the majority here, this is ridiculous and you need to get a life. There are far more productive campaigns you could more usefully take on.

This is pathetic.

Do you suggest we should dress our children only in white and refer to them as them rather than he and she, and only give them a gender neutral name?

Sorry, no. My child is male, I will bring him up as a boy. When he's an adult if he decides he no longer wants to be a man, fine, his choice.

I refuse to bring him up as a gender neutral whatever just in case he decides he doesn't want to be what his sex is anymore.

This boils my brain honestly it's crazy.

I am all for being yourself and I do sympathise with adults and teenagers who genuinely feel like they've been born with the wrong body, and I think if they want to change that body that's absolutely fine and that's their right.

I am not all for teaching children that you cannot be a boy or girl! We'll be banning names soon and only giving numbers just in case our choice influences what gender our child decides they are.

I opened this thread thinking it was going to be a campaign against gender screening on the grounds that it might lead to a higher abortion rate of female foetuses amongst some communities/cultures.

verybitchyrestingface now that would be a good reason to ban them.

very

Same. And that would be a very good reason to ban them...

Are you saying babies don't have genders? My DS is a boy and if he he wants to become a woman when he's older, fine. But it doesn't change the fact he was born a boy. Babies don't have self-identification issues.

It's not actually meant to be called a gender/sex scan anyway because its main purpose is to check that your baby is developing normally.

Of course babes have genders, but that is still not the same as sex.

Studies have shown that from birth (and probably before) boy babies and girl babies are treated in very different ways due to the way that society percieves their sex.

That's stupid
Op most areas that have high Asian populations and let's be clear were mainly talking about Asian coumminty who do this there are others but the Asian coummity are the largest

Often there are guildlines were there don't offer the sex of the child I know I lived in London and only found out the sex of my baby when I had a scare when I was on Hoilday in Bristol

harley

I had to have a private sex scan as our local hospital wouldn't tell you what sex the baby was during the anomalies scan

Ok good, RiverTam - in that case I did understand it all along, but whether people like it or not, the word gender has been used interchangeably with the word sex for donkey's years. A word means what people use it to mean. Words change meaning over time. You can argue that scientific terminology has strict meanings, but words like 'gender' and 'sex' which are commonly used by the non-scientific public are no longer bound by scientists. To all intents and purposes, if the public uses 'gender' to mean 'sex', then gender means sex. You can't force people to change the meanings of words they use. It reminds me a little of the horror caused on MN by people using the word 'vagina' instead of vulva. They know what it is, they know what is meant. It became common and accepted to use the word that way, and in the vast majority of situations the two words can be used synonymously without confusion because it's established usage.

I entirely agree that forcing stereotypes onto people is negative and damaging, but that kind of treatment isn't caused by using the word 'gender' 'incorrectly', it's caused by people being discriminatory arseholes.

I think you may have misunderstood slightly fish

Op is happy with sex scans...just not gender scans

Apologies if i have misunderstood and you havent

I can just see Trading Standards Departments taking this seriously!

whether people like it or not, the word gender has been used interchangeably with the word sex for donkey's years.

You have no problem with the erasure of women then?

very Yes, me too....but no. Another bored OP trying to create a controversial thread. Yaaaaaaaawwwwwwwnnnnnn.

And anyway, what the fuck is a 'gender scan'? At my twenty week scan, they were looking for possible problems with the foetus, and then asked me if I would like to know the sex of my baby.

fine. This! This is what infuriates me! Centuries of campaigning for women to have equal rights as men, and now the word 'woman' is being sidelined? Bore off, OP.

Only, that has been forgotten, and parents believe that their baby is being assigned a "gender".

No they dont. Parents are not that stupid. No one 'assigns' a child a gender.
And the hijacking of the word gender is very new and recent.
The word still means what it originally meant in the context of fetal scans.

it's highly likey op will be one of the people on the phone yo mermaids the minute her daughter picks up a car or son wants to play with a doll

You haven't read all my posts on this thread, have you?
Exactly the opposite - I've been accused of being transphobic and a TERF myself due to the misinterpretation of my use of the words sex and gender.

It's arguable really.

Gender isn't self determined under UK law - these scans can tell you the Gender of your child as recognised by UK Law i.e. whether your child is male or female.

The whole concept of self-determining Gender is pretty controversial.

The Oxford English Dictionary has a wider definition of Gender: ''The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)'. Even this doesn't rule out entirely basing Gender on biological sex though, just stating that typically reference is given to social and cultural differences rather than physical ones.

I found that finding out the gender of both my girls helped me to bond with them prebirth and definitely helped DD1 come to terms with the impending new baby. Not because I wanted to know whether to buy pink or blue but because it helped us all get a clearer idea of what our baby might be like and start thinking of names, etc. It's more than trying to pigeon-hole babies before they're even born.

I found that finding out the gender of both my girls helped me to bond with them prebirth

disco my point is that you weren't told your babies gender, you were told what sex she was. It's not possible to determine gender in the womb.

I just don't think you are aware of what trans activists mostly want. This wouldn't solve it at all.
Even mentioning physical sex is transphobic according to some.
So a sex scan would be seen as transphobic. They call it assigning a sex at birth and see it as wrong.

I just don't think you are aware of what trans activists mostly want. This wouldn't solve it at all.
Even mentioning physical sex is transphobic according to some.
So a sex scan would be seen as transphobic. They call it assigning a sex at birth and see it as wrong.