Dd and argument with trans friends.

[marvelousdcomics]

I'm sorry in advance but this thread is about trans* relates things. I know there are so many threads on this topic already but I'm unsure of what to do.

So, my DD is 14 and a lesbian. She has had ED's, depression, anxiety and self harm issues. A few weeks ago she believed the solution was being trans. We've struggled a bit and she's come to the conclusion that she isn't, although websites and youtube videos on the topic were influencing her. She's improving every day and is gradually embracing self acceptance.

However, at her school are 5 FTM students. They've been horrible to her (two were her friends). They said she was ignoring her 'true self', said she's in denial etc. Dd ignored them.

Today however, one of the friends posted a status on FB of all the 30+ genders there are (apparently). Friend tagged dd and said 'don't ask dd about LGBTQ+ stuff because she's a transphobe and thinks gender is made up'. Dd commented underneath 'im sorry, but have you gotten this wrong? I'm not transphobic at all. I do believe however that gender is a social construct and can be damaging to some people.' Friend then replied with 'thats transphobia! I'm going to report you. You're a disgrace to the LGBTQ+ community and even a transwoman wouldn't take you.' DD then replied with 'well, I'll take the insult if that's what you think. However, I wouldn't date a transwoman purely because I am a lesbian and transwomen are biologically male.'

Afterwards, the FTM students and a couple of others ganged up on dd. Kept calling her horrible things including faggot, transphobic, delusional etc. Dd kept calm, explaining her opinion that gender is made up, sex can never be changed, she wouldn't date a transwoman, its a bit hard to believe there are so many genders, transing children is wrong, self identification is dangerous etc.

Friend told parents who messaged me about my disgustingly transphobic daughter and are threatening to report me and my daughter for bullying their children.

I guess this is more of a WWYD. DD is distraught and I'm rather baffled by the whole thing.

Spunky. Sorry that wasn't meant to be a criticism of you and I agree it might be helpful for the OP to see how her daughter's comment might be interpreted.
But i think in this case it might muddy the waters to get into the debate too deeply. Even if the bullies had thought through their arguments so clearly, which I don't think they did, they acted In an unacceptable way. I hope the school does a good job of sorting this out! It might be appropriate to have a discussion about what is and what isn't transphobic once the bullies are able to engage in a reasonable way.
I think I have some reading up to do before DD is a teenager.

I think that regardless of what people on this forum think, the OP's DD is going to be in for an awfully rough ride in most queer circles I know if she's going to push a particular line on gender. And it's all very well everyone on here playing armchair warrior and pushing a particular political line, but I very much doubt that is going to help.

And I really think the OP should not encourage her daughter to pick a fight that I think is likely to leave her terribly lonely and isolated. If she doesn't want to have relationships with trans women, that's OK, but it's pretty rude to say "I think you're a man". If she doesn't want to ID as a trans man but prefers to be a lesbian woman, that's also OK, but there's no need to pick fights with her peers and question their gender identity.

And maybe queer uni groups will change in the next 3 years or so, but I really don't think the OP's DD is going to be able to function in her uni LBGTQIA group if she turns up saying firmly that gender = biology. She is entitled to her opinion, but I think it's unnecessarily provocative to start those conversations, and it likely to leave her with a much more limited social group, and probably a lot of very challenging and unfun conversations. Honestly, she might as well turn up at uni announcing that interracial relationships are wrong, or women aren't responsible enough to be able to vote as turn up announcing that trans people don't exist and are just mentally unwell and expect to fit into queer youth society these days.

I also worry that she's taken this stance in part because she's come under significant pressure from home. I've not encountered any young trans people who refuse to accept cis women can be lesbians, and I note she used to doubt her own gender identity. I wonder if she's being pulled all of the different directions - friends saying one thing, home saying another - and I think pressuring her to take either line is really unhealthy.

She sounds as if she needs to step back, keep out of the arguments, and figure stuff out for herself.

To the poster who said about girls rejecting womanhood, do you mean girls deciding to be FTM?

OP I think it's wise not to reply to those parents.

Not only do I not understand how we got to this point but how did it happen so fast?

Look, dear commenters. This topic is incredibly divisive. A reason why I'd never discuss it with any of my feminist coworkers... (unless they were TERFS, but these are simply crazy in other ways). Anyway, I do believe that people are actually trans. Some. Certainly not all these teens with their "new" genders.

But it's (imo) more important that OP's daughter learns what she can say without creating a shitstorm like this.
I'm not saying the DD's bullying is justified. Not at all. I hope the school responds adequately. And I wish OP's daughter all the best. She sounds like a very sensible young woman.

But seriously, unless you're a politician or activist you shouldn't make political statements on facebook. It's terrible that DD had to learn it like this.

Of course you can make political statements on Facebook unless you're satisfied with superficial "friendships" where you have to hide your true beliefs.

OP, your daughter sounds like a strong, brace women and she will find "her people".

39up, I did not encourage my daughter to do/say anything. And I'm certainly not forcing any views on her One reason I believe she struggled with her identity is because of these kids - they shove their views down everyone's throats. Doesn't everyone question who they are at some point? Furthermore, stating that my she, who is attracted to females (XX), would not date a biological male, is in NO WAY comparable to disagreeing with interracial relationships. Me and DP are in one, actually. And she didn't say gender = biology. She said gender is a social construct. Sex = biology. She actually has a great group of friends and doesn't struggle within it. Its bullies like these that she struggles with

four

Sure, if you're willing to deal with the backlash. Because justified or not, the OP's daughter will get backlash. A lot.

Especially in groups with a lot of young LGBT+. As a lesbian the OP's daughter might want to sometimes be welcome in these groups...
You can accept this or not. But it is honestly true.

Your DD is amazing. I've often thought how I'd hate to be a young lesbian nowadays.

As others have said, she is amazingly mature and strong. She's done nothing wrong. Screen shot and report to the school for homophobic bullying.

It's amazing how much bullying and misogyny is cloaked by "but I'm trans" and oppression olympics.

Fourormore thank you.

Just to clarify, dd is fully accepting of 'true' trans people, who have had a lifetime of sex dysphoria. However, she would still be clear on biology, and knows that no one can change sex. She would also call these people by preferred name/pronouns.

She also respected these friends too, but she always thought it was a bit far fetched (never said that to them). I think its perfectly fine for her to express her views. Too many people are afraid to nowadays. And also, the bullies are the once who were telling dd that even a transwoman wouldn't want her. I think its justifiable for dd to reply to that

Hermione thank you
Have screenshotted all messages

Hang on, are people really saying that women (young may they be) just shut up and allow the nullification of the meaning of the word woman to go unchallenged?

We're not post-liberation here. Woman means something and to not fight for retaining the definition as something meaningful is not really an option, is it?

We should all be creating a shit storm.

39 what the fuck?

"it's pretty rude to say "I think you're a man". If she doesn't want to ID as a trans man but prefers to be a lesbian woman, that's also OK, but there's no need to pick fights with her peers and question their gender identity. "

Firstly she hasn't gone up to a random TW and said "I thin, you're a man", she has clarified that , as a lesbian, she doesn't see TW (male) as potential sexual partners. This is absolutely her right. She doesn't have to be polite about her sexuality. Also, you don't toss a coin and decide whether you're a lesbian or a trans man. Are you fucking joking? Have you any idea how offensive and homophobic you are?

To the poster who said about girls rejecting womanhood, do you mean girls deciding to be FTM?

Yep

Your poor DD. She's lucky to have such a supportive mother.

The trans threads on Mumsnet are constantly eye-opening. The fact that five girls in a single school year are identifying as male is surely proof that this is a trend. I do hope it's not still a current trend by the time my DD is a teen.

I think she should delete and block all these 'friends' and put stricter privacy on her social media, reduce use of you tube, and take up some hobbies which will help build her self esteem.

wadman

Didn't even think of that (I'm gullible)... but. Are there really that many ftms? With parents that would allow this? Idk.

However, if it isn't made up: OP, your DD sounds really great, I wish her all the best.

Widow, umm why?? I have a very distressed dd here and I can assure you it is not made up in the slightest. But thank you anyway

Bookworm, thank you. I did say above that her 2 friends are in her year, 1 in the school year 2 below dd, and 2 in the year above, so not all in one year.

first. This, really.

Jinx, thanks. I'm just wondering now if you mean transsexual as in actually having treatment, because im not sure what rejecting womanhood means otherwise.

I've just read back. To the pp who said this has happened really quickly, it has been building up for a few weeks. DD and these friends have known each other since they were 11. Only since dd had started questioning her gender and came out have they been hurling insults at her, being 'sly', hurting her etc. It all just came to a head today

I think by saying this has happened so quickly the pp was referring to the fact that a year or so ago barely anyone had heard about being "trans" and then from this thread it seems like there are a very large number of trans children.

Atticus, okay thank you for clearing that up. In that case, I fully agree then.

Your daughter sounds very bright, but I'm sorry to say that expressing any political views at all is going to put her under fire. There's a reason it's not considered good small talk, for example. The other students' orientation or identity is a red herring; entering into any kind of debate with them on Facebook will end well for nobody, as at least one party is prone to resorting to name calling, and judging by the choice of comments made, not particularly mature. At that age, they're still learning how to express their views. If your daughter's markedly more developed in that area, she should be aware not only that they are immature, but that pointing it out or trying to reason with them will fall on deaf ears. She is lucky to have a good group of friends, and I am sorry that these other kids are feeling insecure enough to need to pick sides so badly that they're baiting people who they already know disagree with their views. Thoroughly nasty situation.

Source: Non-binary seeking hormone treatment, and left school less than ten years ago. At face value, I would've had a much better time of it had I been in school nowadays, given that my identity "is a trend", but I do suspect hate would find a way, and I can't be certain that if I found myself in a then socially dominant group, that I had no potential to have said some disgusting things. In my day, it was atheists being cartoonishly catty toward religious people, and many of us, although non-religious, thought it was pathetic. The trend has largely passed. That's all I can offer.

TheWorst, thank you for your post. DD has blocked them and I will have a word with school ASAP. I've told her not to interact with these 'friends' anymore and she's agreed. May I just ask what non binary is? I have heard of it, but am not awfully familiar with it. Thank you.