for believing that people

[3andnomore]

shouldn't be doing something (nothing in particular right now) because on just shouldn't , rather because one fears punishment?

one just shouldn't

If they are decent people with morals, then they wouldn't do "something" because they are good. Not because they are afraid of the repercussions.

I agree with you.

people 'shouldn't' not do something just because they fear punishment, rather than because they know it is wrong.

HOwever people don't always do what they should or shouldn't. Also society sets the moral code and not every individual is going to agree with every single part of it so punishment is there to make sure they conform.

Oh, not disagreeing at the punishment bit...just finding it sad that people need it as motivation, iykwim

It is one of the most compelling arguments against modern standardised "positive parenting" methods. The child learns how to behave according to a set of criteria guided by a system of good and bad consequences (bribery and blackmail) rather than learning about empathy/morality/ethics/the "real" reasons for some behaviours being more desirable socially than others. It could be argued also that this standardisation of parenting into asimple system of training - like training an animal by using positive and negative reinforcers - suits modern parents better, because a) we generally have less time and more commitments outside the family, b) extended family/community infrastructures are much looser than they used to be and parents can become isolated in their parenting, and c) in a culture where children may have several "primary" carers and more and more of children's upbringing is contracted out to dispassionate professionals, it is easier to have a uniform system in which all the rules and reinforcers are the same.

punishment by society is something others inflict on you but (am I not sure I can explain it very well) when you don't do something because it is 'wrong' surely it is because you still fear feeling bad/guilty which is a punishment you would inflict on yourself.

Being pedantic, I know. I do agree with you but I can't help thinking these things.

surely by teaching children not to do something because of empathy/morals/ethics is teaching them to punish themselves (by feeling guilty or bad).

isn't it better though to be your own worst judge ?
I mean, for example,sportsmen tend to be succesful because they can motivate themselfs, etc....

and I think what greensleeves means is not so muhc that one judges themselfs harshly, but respects others....

hm...if everyone would respect eachother, I think that would be quite nice....
i know to simplified, of course!

You go into a lecture. You agree with the whole class beforehand that every time the teacher smiles, you'll sit up straight and look more attentive. The lecture before you record the number of smiles per lecture from the teacher (do it a few times- take an average- it's more accurate). Then you implement your plan; smile= whole class sitting up straight and looking more attentive. And you record the number of smiles from the teacher. do it for a few lectures - take an average

Guess what happens to the number of smile? They triple or quadruple or something- significant difference. (That's been done btw)

Using behavioural methods properly does not have to be about blatant bribery.

Do you think that there is some biological/evolutional reasoning to some empathic feelings? For example do not kill as they may lead to a problem in passing on your genes or that your specie's survival may be damaged as a result.

The way that (most) people are protective towards children - is that an evolutionary response.

Would these therefore be inherent? and as a result have these formed the basis for a basic/general moral code for the human race as a whole?

JJ do you think that would suggest some kind of innate empathy/morality or a need to conform to some societal rules?

natural selection doesn't really work at a species level (except in very special cases), so if empathy has evolved it will be for individual gains.

There's a very good book by Karen Pryor ( a dolphin trainer of all things)- Don't shoot the dog- gives a very good, easy to follow explanation of reinforcement and shaping. I was once advised by a very wise man that if a dolphin trainer ever offered to work with ds1then we should bite their hand off as they have such a detailed understanding of reinforcement and shaping behaviours (which is bloody difficult to do). For example at the moment we have chalening behaviours in that ds1 will pinch and pinch and pinch. My hands are covered in bruises and my neck in scratches. I've taken at times to grabbing his wrists (to stop him repeatedly going for me), that is I was grabbing his wrists until it was pointed out to me that for him having his wrists squeezed was probably wonderful, so I was inadvertantly reinforcing the pinching behaviour. I need a dolphin trainer- they'd never make that mistake (now he can ask for a squeeze but I make sure he doesn;t get one for pinching).

sorry - crossed post- no - I would say that students looking attenitve is reinforcing for people giving lectures±!

that's really interesting.

As you may have gathered my knowledge of natural selection/evolution is poor but I do find this stuff interesting.

2 posts back- should be challenging behaviours!

the old chesnut carrot v. stick.

depends on the situation, entirely.

expat, don't think though it's that much of a matter of carrot via stick...I honestly thnk people should just do things because it's the right thing to do...i.e. follow simple rules, etc....there shouldn't really be the need for a carrot nor a stick...iykwim.
What always makes me love, is those that seem to be unable to follow a rule are then also those that complain the most about any new measurements put in place to enforce that the orginal rule is followed.
Example....fair few years ago, 30mph zone, ion front of a school, but people didn't necessarily feel they had to follow that rule and kept speeding....and I knew a fair few of those people, and those people than started moaning when they put in speedbumps, roundabouts and made the road narrower at one point...this of course could really slow things down big time...!
I must say, I just turned around in one of those moaning session and told them, that if people could just go 30mph because it says so (because obviously there is a reason for it to be a 30mph zone, right), and not continously break that rule, there woldn't be the need to spend loads of money on roundabouts and shite like that...I mean...it's simple really...is it not?

Ive always thought its a bloody good job that the majority arent thieves ands rapists and thugs etc as who would stop the majority if we were all breaking into houses and smashing cars and mugging old ladies etc?

I think the argument about moral/ethical understanding and empathy just being a conditioning system for self-punishment is terrible, in fact I'm quite shocked by it.

Empathy isn't a tool for blackmailing oneself, it's a vital part of the maturation of the human character - the awareness of other people as distinct from oneself and the recognition that others' experiences are as real as one's own. If my 4yo kicks his brother in the shin, I explain to him how it makes his brother feel and ask him to imagine how he would feel if someone did it to him. So he knows why his brother is crying and mummy is upset. That's not about making him feel bad, it's about him learning that his behaviour towards others matters in a real way, rather than just being about HIS pasta jar or HIS star chart or HIS being in trouble - it's not all about him! If he had no capacity for empathy he wouldn't feel bad in response to stimuli like me being cross or his brother crying anyway - only the lost star/pasta/time-out would produce a reaction. I believe there is a correlation between that message and the fact that he will rush to help another child who has fallen over and hurt himself. I'm not teaching him to punish himself internally, I'm teaching him that other people exist, just as he does, and that he can make the right decisions without self-interest (ie desire for reward or fear of punishment).

Teaching children to sit up and beg for rewards or conform purely in order to avoid punishment reduces them to the level of dumb animals and deprives them of the joy and dignity of a proper connected relationship with other people and a sense of participating in society. I think it's horrible cynical to suggest that basic human decency - not wilfully abusing others - is just a construct for controlling behaviour in the same way as a star chart/sweetie jar/cane.

But I suppose to someone who genuinely doesn't believe in the human capacity for altruism, empathy and self-punishment could appear synonymous - that's appallingly sad, IMO.