for believing that people

[3andnomore]

shouldn't be doing something (nothing in particular right now) because on just shouldn't , rather because one fears punishment?

Maybe she would have still stammered whatever salt therapy was used though, md? So hard to know! If so, it is great that she felt comfortable with her stammer. But if it was possible to 'fix' it somehow then learning to be comfortable with it rather than learning to eliminate it seems like a bad move. And that's true for all sorts of things really, i guess, Sometimes a problem is a problem simply because we view it as a problem but sometimes we do really need ways to lose weight or not hit our siblings or stop smoking or not moon at our headteacher.

I bloody hate sticker charts

Yeah,whoever can 'cure' a stammer will make a million.

No, I don't think saying "Your brother is crying because you hurt him - if he kicked you, how would you feel?" isn't a punishment. If the child feels bad, that is because his own innate sense of empathy is being invoked and developed. His feeling bad is a by-product of his learning WHY hitting people is wrong. A child who had no natural empathy wouldn't be upset by that being said to him. It's a completely different phenomenon from saying "Right, you hit your brother, you've been told not to, so you're getting no telly today". A child with no empathy whatsoever would probably eventually give up hitting after repeated applications of that type of behaviourist punishment, but he wouldn't understand that hitting people hurts them and he wouldn't learn to respond emotionally to somebody else's suffering.

I'm a bit lost now GS.....

I was answering Aloha's post

You think saying something like this is a punishment??

To a behaviourist,anything that decreases a behaviour is a punisher.

To a behaviourist anything that increases behaviour is a reinforcer.

first sentence totally ungrammatical, sorry

I mean I don't think it is a punishment to point out that the brother is crying because he has been kicked, and it hurts. Children don't automatically understand that other people actually feel things the way they do - they need to be taught it.

Ah, but I very strongly suspect he is much more 'punished' by the withdrawal of your approval than by his 'innate sense of empathy' kicking in! Really, I am. Most children hate to lose their parent's approval and warmth, so just using a stern tone and a severe/serious face is a punishment. It is aversive. while showing your approval is reinforcing. Other things may be accidentally reinforcing. Even a star chart could reinforce bad behaviour if it means they get your one to one attention, good or bad.

I would usually say something like "Oh dear, poor XXX, that has really hurt him and he is very upset" and then get the kicker/hitter to rub/kiss it better. I don't think that's punitive, but it does seem to work. Although of course my children are 4 and 2, so very little still.

Exactly so Aloha.

I understand that a 'punisher' does not have to be punishment in the sense of being a hit or a withdrawal of privileges, but could be the withdrawal of your approval (such as not smiling at a child who bites) or being asked to do something they don't particularly want to do, such as kiss their brother/say sorry. The resumption of your approval when they do this is the reinforcer. I am a huge fan of this kind of behaviourism, and we don't have naughty steps or star charts or pasta jars in our house either

But he doesn't lose my approval. I'm sad because my other child is crying, not because I'm angry with ds1. I generally get them to cuddle/rub each other better and then I give the offending child a hug and reiterate the point about being kicked feeling the same whether it's him or someone else on the receiving end.

(Although obviously I cock this up ALL the time, lose patience, etc - I'm arguing this as what I try to do and what I would do if I were perfect in my own eyes, which I am not )

But do you smile and cuddle the biter/hitter/pusher while you tell him how sad his brother is? I bet not! You look serious and stern and cuddle his brother instead. Then, when he kisses his brother etc you smile and cuddle him..?

i think a lot of time kids completely miss the point whatever you do, though. I remember being mean to my sister and getting gently told off by my ma in a greensleevesesque way and I was always v upset and would stop my bad action of the moment. But not because i had hurt my sister's feelings, which was the wrong that my mum was patiently trying to encourage me to view as a bad thing. I was sorry because my mum was sad and thought I'd done something mean and I wanted her to think the best of me. Granted, I think "oi stop being a little shit or I will give you a cross on your star chart" would have been equally ineffective but empathy didn't come to me till later in life despite my mum's best efforts and i do think a little more STOP that right now and a little less explanation would not have gone amiss at times.

Ah Aloha!!
Tis simple isn't it but it takes people a long time to get their heads around it,especially when you then subdivide into positive and negative reinforcement and positive and negative punishment.

The withdrawal of approval is negative punishment by the way.

'Negative' refers to removal of something,in this case,your attention

It depends on the severity of the injury I suppose - mine aren't particularly given to violence (yet) although they tussle over toys and push each other over etc. I do usually try to respond to these incidents with a calming tone and concern for the falling-out between them, rather than being angry with the other one or pointedly giving my attention to the injured party.

But as I said, I'm not always very good at it. That's what's great about discussion forums, we can debate what we think the ideal would be, while accepting that we are not and never will be ideal.

I do see that in a sense everything a parent does in relation to a child is either a positive or negative reinforcer - such is the nature of human relationships. But IMO that's wholly different from deliberately applying a set of contrived artificial reinforcers with the aim of producing a specific effect. If my son feel "punished" by my discomfiture as I pick his brother up off the floor, that's an incidental function of us both being sentient human beings who are aware of and affected by one another's feelings. A far cry from star charts, or paying children to behave themselves

It may seem removed from it GS,but they function in the same way and from the point of view of a behaviourist,this is all that really matter.

In a nutshell,topography is different but function is identical.

There is also evidence that the development of empathy is innate and doesn't have to be taught - it is developmental. And develops more by normal peer interaction than by parent-child intstruction. ie by trial and error during play. Probably partly because children give very direct feedback or behavioural reinforcement! Of course certain types of brain injury, certain medical conditions and an abusive upbringing will interfere with this development as well.

I found that very interesting btw!

Well I'll have to take your word for it that a behaviourist wouldn't see the difference, moondog.

I rather think children do, though, or mine at least. I think that's probably the crux of of our disagreement.

Theory of Mind they call it Aloha.
Some peopel have tried to teach it to autistic kids-with limited results natch!

I think you are a silly old soppy Greensleeves! Nah, I don't go much for naughty steps etc and my kids are certainly no worse behaved than others, and better than quite a few, but I do think the odd 'leave that ALONE THIS MINUTE OR I WILL BE VERY VERY CROSS!' is valid!