for believing that people

[3andnomore]

shouldn't be doing something (nothing in particular right now) because on just shouldn't , rather because one fears punishment?

I would also add (without wishing to upset/offend) that the capacity for empathy might be different in an autistic person, so different methods of conditioning social behaviour might be appropriate with an autistic child. This is only a personal opinion drawn from my own experience of severe autism, which is much less extensive than yours Jimjams - I'd be interested to know what you think - are behaviorist techniques perhaps more effective with an autistic child because of the particular psychosocial impairments autism involves?

I am sincerely not meaning to offend, just to explore.

I have to go out now- but will return to this later- just a quick something to clear up. The main way I use behavioural techniques with ds1 to tackle challenging behaviours is to ensure that I am not unwittingly reinforcing when he does something difficult. When he pinches me he rather likes me to shout "no" and he'll do it again to get another one, he likes it even more if I (or anyone else) screams, I've been trying therefore to block his hands whilst looking bored/actiing bored- to make the whole activity uninteresting. I missed that blocking his hands was likely to be quite enjoyable for him (grabbing wrists).

Explaining to him that he's hurt someone else isn't really an option.

Without the proper application of behaviourism he would have learned nothing. If you lok at my thread on SN on imitation- such a basic skill- most children are pretty much born with it- I don't remember a time when ds2 and ds3 couldn;t imitate. It's taken us about 4 years to teach it- and he truly understands it. With that in place speech becomes a possibility (by no means a certainty- but without imitation I think its impossible to speak). If that's been achieved via the use of chocolate buttons and being swung around and held upside down (favoured method of reinforcement at the moment) then so be it. He wouldn't have got it any other way.

I'll come back to this later- but to be honest when you talk about behaviourism you describe something that I don't even recognise. I think we're talking about different things. There's no pasta jar in this house and there hasn'[t been a star chart since ds2 was toilet trained 2 years ago.

Empathy though requires theory of mind.And whilst ds1 certainly has some understandsing of others thoughts and feelings he's a long way from being able to process an explanation about pinching hurting others.

Yes, the pasta jar/star chart are just common examples of reinforcers - of course there are as many others as there are families using them, I think that's immaterial really. If your ds1 likes you shouting "No", that's a positive reinforcer. Another child might prefer a chocolate button or a sticker.

It does sound, from your post, as though your ds1's particular condition makes behavioural techniques appropriate for him. I would suggest that the empathy issue lies at the heart of what characterises autism, so the priority is to modify behaviour, rather than developing an understanding of why certain behaviours are unacceptable. I am making the point that IMO in NT children the capacity for fellow-feeling/theory of mind/empathy renders pure behaviour-modification techniques, using reward/punishment reinforcers neither necessary or appropriate, and such methods cannot and do not produce properly socialised adults.

but your son wants to please you- he knows that treating other people nicely pleases you- that's can still be reinforcement. Yes, you can tune into empathy if its there, but it takes quite a few years to develop (and many aduylts appear to be completely lacking ime), so you need to do something in the meantime. Once the wish to please you is there then of course it makes sense to use that reinforcement. I prefer ds1 to have swinging upside down as reinforcement than slivers of choc buttons because I prefr to work with social reinforcement when possible.

Behaviourism isn't all about providing tangible rewards on completion of some predetermined task- it's much more subtle than that- eg the smiling example I gave earlier.

Another example (stolen from the don't shoot the doog book)is kids squabbling in the car- one way they give to get rid of it is to play games- eye spy etc-because its incompatible with squabbling.

I put this on the other thread, but at bedtime last night I blew ds1 a kiss and he blew one back for the first time ever. The fact that getting that kiss took 4 years of table work, reinforcment wiith choc buttons, as well as more social reinforcement by hanging upside down etc didn't, and the fact that it came at 7 didn't make it any less special than ds2 or ds3's that came aged 12 months with no teaching using tangible rewards being necessary.

I also know that if I didn't have a good understaning of reinforcement ds1 would have a whole host of challenging behaviours by now (he began to collect them when he spent 4 terms in mainstream with people who didn't properly understand reinforcement- and that wasn't my view- I didn't see what was going on- that was the view of an autism specialist). I don't apply behavioural methods so carefully to ds2 and ds3, I don't chart their behaviours for example- I don't have to. They're far easier- they're positively reinforced by pleasing me for starters.

Hmmm.

So, simplistically, is it better to say, upon dealing with misbehavior, "I am taking away a pasta because you kicked your brother" or "You have really hurt your brother and that was naughty and mean. Poor (brother's name)!"

May I just add that if using behavioural techniques properly,reinforcers (such as chocolate or swinging upside down)can be used but the golden rule is that they must be faded.
(Am doing MSc in Applied Behaviour Analysis)

How would you fade? By giving a smaller piece of chocolate, or a shorter swing upside down?

Can you explain further MD? Maybe with an example?

Basically,yes.
That's the theory anyway.

I am fairly new to ABA (Jimjams knows more than me) as am a salt and have just started my course.
Needless to say,I feel that the standard salt approach just doesn't work with a lot of people.
Behaviourist approaches are based on years of painstaking lab based research.

NO that's not what I'm saying at all colditz.

Yep - agree MD- and a mistake that people using pasta jars etc often make I think is not fading. I made the mistake however of trying to fade too quickly- which also doesn't work(!).

True
The whole fading thing is at the core of misunderstanding ABA I think.

By the way,found interesting article in my 'trade magazine' the other day.
It is written by a salt criticising ABA.

The next month's edition has a riposte from a mother of an autistic child who is accessing ABA explaining why she thinks it is good.

Am going to photocopy both for my classmates.
If you like i could pass onto you-send me your address if so.

colditz- sorry- am short of time- but for starters I would never take anything away. If a child was reinforced by pleasing me then I would sit down and explain about it not being nice etc- he would understand from tone of voice etc that I was displeased etc.

If the child wasn't reinforced by pleasing me (ds1 and to a certian extent ds3- he's still very young) then how I would respond woud depend on whether it was a one off, whether it was a pattern and the reason for the kick etc etc.

would love to see it moondoog thanks- have to go back to tea now (complete with constant reinforcement to get ds1 to eat ) will email you later- although suspect I've lost your address as my inbox has deleted itself so might come via a cat.

Good example of reinforcing 'bad' behaviour is this:

My two year old loves messing with the ignition thing on stove.
My six year old (very safety conscious) freaks out and runs in screaming every time he does it. Therefore he does it more.

The way to stop this behaviour is to punish it.This is used in a very different sense by behaviourists.Punishment refers to anything which lessems behaviour (and reinforcement refers to anything which increases behaviour.

Thus we could punish his messing about with the ignition bahaviour by my six year old not rushing in screaming every time he does it,as that is what he loves.

I know behaviourist techniques are the product of much research over many years moondog - which is why they are so reliable and efficacious. However my point is that they are only effective in what they are designed to do, which is to modify behaviour. They don't and can;t educate and develop the character or aid the childn't maturation into an empathis and social being. In the case of a severely autistic child where the capacity for making complex empathic/ethical judgements is impaired, all well and good to use behaviorism - it works. But to bring up NT children in the same way is a mistake IMO.

The assumption sadly seems to be that if a child can be trained/induced to behave in a way which looks socially responsible/moral, then it doesn't matter what motivations lie behind it or at what level the person understands what is appropriate and why. IMO it's a symptom of our increasing preoccupation with the world of appearances. It will be interesting to see what kind of adults the "positive parenting" movement produces.

I agree GS.

What I have come to believe is that these techniques are overused with neurologically typical children and underused with children with developmental disabilities such as Autism.

I don't believe an NT child should be doing regular stuff (like tidying,going to the loo,helping at home) for stickers. they have the inteleectual capaCITY TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE DO.

hOWEVER,REINFORCERS MASSIVEly useful in case of,for example an autistic child,if their use means he can go to a local leisure centre and join in a swimming group without ripping his clothes off/hitting people for example.He doesn't necessarily need ot know this is ethically/morally wrong,he just needs to know that it really isn't worth his while to do this stuff and that by not doing it,his world becomes altogether more interesting.

wow, this discussion is definately not what I thought it would be when I started with the OP....but it's really interesting indeed.

'Don't shoot the dog' is a brilliant (and very readable) book.Available widely.
It is on my MSc reading list.

JJ,one of the girls on my course is a marine biologist so many fascinating discussions unfold.

But GS- I think when you talk about behaviourism you are only talking about tangible reward systems. I'm using it to mean something much wider. I don't really use sticker charts etc- don't need to with ds2 - he can't help but be well behaved as he has a very strong wish to please people- ds3 (very strong willed) may need tangible rewards more to begin with- will wait to see what unfolds. With all my children I use an understanding of reinforcement though- which really is at the core of behaviourism. Don't Shoot the Dog is a great book- it's not a how to book at all- it just clearly explains reinforcement. And I interpret punishment in the way moondog describes it.

No, I'm using tangible reward systems (sticker charts, sweets etc) to illustrate my points, because those props are fashionable with younger children at the moment and most people have heard of them. But I think the same arguments apply as to other, less blunt-instrument behaviourist practices/reward-punishment systems. They proceed from the same ideas and have the same limitations when it comes to bringing up NT children IMO.

This is such an interesting discussion and I'm keen to get some tangible examples (to help those of us who find it hard to get our heads round such concepts).

How, for example, should I deal with an 8 year old reluctant to do their homework? Or tidy their room? The first I guess that I could leave to the school to sort out but the 8 year old would quite happily leave the room to fester for years. Are you therefore saying that the right way of dealing with these behaviours is not with rewards/punishments? How else would you deal with them?

Zog,you could use a punishment (ie something that lessens the not doing homework behaviour)
No tv perhaps or less pocket money.

Well yes, that's the kind of thing I do at the moment but GS seems to be suggesting that it doesn't work and there is another way of dealing with it. Am interested to hear more.