for believing that people

[3andnomore]

shouldn't be doing something (nothing in particular right now) because on just shouldn't , rather because one fears punishment?

It all depends on the individual.There is no blanket method.

With a thread like this i do believe that the saying "There is no handbook for rearing children" i think mumsnet is changing that a little bit.

my d/d1 is very sensitive and was trying to get two wee boys that where chasing d/d2 at indoor play area to say sorry!?! d/d 2 is a bit of a drama queen has to be said.

If only there was a handbook. There is a strong religious element at my d/d 1 school and it is all thinking of others etc..... sometimes i get exapperated that i am bringing my child up to have respect for others and be manerly etc... I don't know in contrast to this i work in two different practices one in a extremely affluent area most of the children attend private schools; this is not a sweeping statement as there are always exceptions to the rule but they have no manners. Not all of them but I don't know what i am trying to say it is as if to say sorry is a sign of weakness.

In the nhs practice people are so appreciative of the job you do. Is it all upbringing. Ultimately I am a product of my upbringing. Ofcourse I want to leave the bad bits out but not to the extent of arrogance iykwim!

I was pondering all this tonight- Several times today I've played a game with ds1 and ds3 where I dance around making funny faces and they copy me. Dh looked up and said "If you'd told me 2 months ago that ds1 would have beeen joining in that I wouldn't have believed you". Later ds1 played a copying game with ds2- someone he has pretty much blanked until the last 3 months (when he began to get imitation). Later he came over and started trying to drag dh up from his chair - I said "PECS card ds1" and off he went came back 10 seconds later with "cuddle" (he wanted dh to lift him onto his shoulders". That was in the space of a couple of hours.

All that social interaction was made possible because of lots of work with tangible reinforcers. He wasn't doing any of those things because we were holdiing a chocolate button in front of him (we weren't), but he was given the tools to do them, and discovered the enjoyment of them from years of work at a table and generally in the environment using tangible reinforcers. Tangible reinforcers have developed social skills in him.

It's extremely powerful - and used properly can be extremely effective with NT children as well- although often you can use something much simpler. When we sent videos to our consultants in the States who set up our programme with ds1 they suggested things for ds2 and ds3 from watching the videos. Really simple things like (having seen ds2 kicking off in prevous mealtimes- he's a bit nof a nightmare at the table- lots of eatiing issues) "oh ds2 seems to be stting nicely- reinforce him periodically for eating so well when he does that"- by which they mean I should say something like "wow aren't you sitting nicely and eating well today". Nothing evil about that- and pure behaviourism. And it really works with him.

jimjams - mwah!

and I'll jump in before someone says it- If ds2 is fussing at the table I don;t do anything other than tell him he can leave his food and get down- no problem. He's not punished for not eating his food- he just doesn't get me saying "wow you ate that so well today- I'm really pleased with how you behaved at the table". So he just gets no reinforcement for fussing- it;s a null response rather than a negative one. Since I've started laying it on thick in the way described above his table behaviour has improved dramatically.

Aviatrix,if punishment was used correctly,it to would be faded as the child would discover the intrinsic worth of having a tidy room,as JJ's ds has discovered the intrinsic worth of positive social interaction.

I do agree about the value of tidying the room though-I don't think it is worth getting in a tizz about.

Interesting that you mention 'Punished by Rewards' by Alfie Kohn.He os on my reading list too and is referred to extensively by my lecturer.....as an example of someone who really doesn't understand correct use of punishment and reward.

I have just done an essay on one of his quotes.

oh moondog am interested in that- because I read his website and thought that he seemed to misunderstand what reinforcement was.

There are times that I would use some sort of negative response to a situation like the poor behaviour of ds2 at the table one. I don't with ds2 because one of the reasons he kicks off is because ds1 gets an awful lot of attention at the table (he's still hand fed at times) - so me directing lots of negative shouty behaviour at ds2 is likely to be reinforcing for him if he is trying to get atention (which I think he is). So instead he gets lots of lovely positive attention when he's eating nicely and nothing when he's not.

Mwah nadine- although I wish I knew who you were

I want to read your essay, Moondog.

Hm...reading the below posts I can see how valuable behaviourable management is with sn children, especially in the autism spectrum, and of course that has to be a winning point....however, with non sn children, who should be able to get the whole emotional stuff...surely greensleeves way is the better way, i.e. let them act to it because they want to , not because they fear punishment or just non-"ackonodgement"....
hmmmmmmmm

But hows he going to learn to sit nicely at the table? 3 months ago ds2's behaviour at the table was terrible. Mainly due to ds1's existence- and ds1 getting lots of attention at mealtimes. How can I make ds2 want to sit nicely if he doesn't understand the value of that? He doesn't particularly enjoy food, and he'd rather be off playing that sitting eating food. Ds1 requires attention at the table full stop, so how would I get decent behaviour at the table if I didn't use reinforcement of some sort?

Using my behavioural method- I praise him now "wow you ate so nicely today" "gosh I'm really pleased with how well you're eating" It's OTT at the moment. Once he's learned to sit and eat nicely I suspect he'll begin to enjoy other aspects of eating- the chat, the food etc- and he won't need me to say all that stuff because he'll have found the pleasure of eating and so the reinforcement is- as moondog has said- faded. The reinforcement for him then comes from the whole social side of sitting at the table and enjoying the meal. But he discovers that through more directed reinforcement.

ntw, what youdescribe I do do with ms and his pooing issue....if he does the poo on the pottty and the bigger/more proper it is, the more I praise,aand I do use a chart for that....ms is non sn, but pooing is an issue and he is on movicol....

ds2 doesn't have SN either. But he still responds well and can discover things like the social value oef enjoying a family meal through reinforcement in the way I described above.

Using it for something like potty training is slightly different as you're using it as a teaching method in terms of teaching a skill. Again it can be extremely powerful- everything ds1 has learned has been through using this method (that may change now he's got imitation). It should also be fun for the child. We've just restarted a table programme where ds1 does an hours work a day after school with tutors- using ABA/VB (behaviour analysis) as the teaching method. One day in the first week we'd started one of the tutors was ill and had to cancel- at 4.15 ds1 came and found me carrying a packet of chocolate buttons and dragged me downstairs and sat me down at the table, then waited for me to do some work with him. He wasn't interested in the choc buttons (allthough he knew that they were part of the system)- he wanted the session and the interaction. For him its a game and fun.

above?? durr below!

I think it depends. Imo many of these methods work supremely well when you feel like a crap parent and have got into a cycle of feeling that your kids are monsters. If you can use 'artificial' reinforcers like stickers or chocolate to get them to behave better in the short term it can be the start of something good. I agree it won't teach them the whys and wherefores but once they aren't annoying you so much you have time to explain to them why their behaviour is impressing you so much more than before and how lovely they are which will up their empathy and self esteem. So I think star charts and the like can be excellent for starting a virtuous circle when things are feeling shit. Mostly because they make parents notice what is going right and comment on it/reward it. Many parents are surprised at how much is going right when they start keeping a proper check, I reckon. When parents are thinking positively about their children they naturally reinforce their good behaviour and raise eyebrows at cheeky bananaheadedness without going ott, I think, but life isn't always so rosy and at those times a bit of a behavioural strategy can be a life saving shortcut I think.

I think everyone raises some really interesting and valid points.
No one system is perfect and no system should be used without a really in depth look at the (to use some jargon) function (ie purpose) of the problem behaviour.

I do worry when I read people on MN advocating star charts left,right and centre.In one case tonight (no names mentioned) it was suggested for a child who obviously has issues with his father's departure.All the star charts in the world aren't going to get to the bottom of that.

I am interested in severe behavioral problems and self injury-things that impact significantly on the lives of the individual who perpetrates them and the people around them.Let me tell you this;appealing to the 'better nature' of a severely autistic kid who is gounging out the eyes of his brother does not work.

A functional analysis will (if successful) uncover the purpose of the behaviour.Is it to elicit attention? Is it to escape a demand? Is it due to low stimulation?'

The great thing about a behavioural approach is that it does not blame some inner state/characteristic for problem behaviour.Thus a child is not labelled as bad or vicious or sly.Instead,the belief is that the environment has created this behaviour and the environment can eliminate it too,if manipulated correctly.

So much of our helping serves no purpose,being mentalisitc.Behaviourism is a science and therefore only concerned with measurable data.Thoughts and feelings can't be measured (which isn't ot say they don't exist) therefore a behaviourist doesn't concern him/herself with them.

I am facinated by the Big MoFos thread which I often read. Classic example of a mentalistic approach.It focusses on feelings a great deal.It is now 40 weeks in.I would be really interested in knowing how many people have actually lost weight who post on it.

BigMoFos thread?????????

Yep

Q lot depends on whether purpose of thread is to lose weight or not feel bad about being large I suppose.

An example from my own profession is something like one of the approaches for stammering (not my field but studied as a student).It is about being comfortable with the stammer rather than eliminating it and spending a lot of time exploring emotional issues.

A woman with a stammer came to talk to us about her therapy.She was happy but she still stammered.
At the time (10 years ago) I thought that was great,but now all I can think about is that she still stammered!!!

Weightloss section?

Yeah,I think so.
I am not criticising them you understand,just musing on nature and purpose of thread.

Yeah,I think so.
I am not criticising them you understand,just musing on nature and purpose of thread.

Saying, 'When you hurt your brother he is very sad' and giving him a bit of lecture and looking sad is a 'punishment' to children in that they feel bad that you are clearly not happy with them. Saying 'great sharing! That's wonderful! Look how happy your brother is now!' with a big smile is reinforcing. Surely that is behaviourism?

Yes