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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to give people assistance with claiming PIP?

437 replies

IwasateenagePIPassessor · 25/10/2016 22:08

No, of course I'm not BU. I'm just posting here for traffic. Name changed, obvs.

Bit of background; I was a PIP Disability Assessor for a while this year, until I decided that I couldn't work within the system with a good conscience, and left. I witnessed DA's who were trying their best, mostly, to help people with their claims. They (and I) were hamstrung both by our immediate employers, and a system (whether by accident or design) that discriminated against claimants with certain conditions. In the spirit of the release of 'I, Daniel Blake', which isn't about PIP but other failures of the benefit system, I've decided to give some general advice to those looking to claim PIP.

Firstly, let's look at initially making the claim. I would say the most vital point is this; PROVIDE EVIDENCE. The way that the claim form/questionnaire is worded implies that the DWP/ATOS/CAPITA or whoever will chase letters from GPS, specialists etc to back up your claim for you. In my experience, this doesn't happen. The onus is on you to provide this information, although it would be very easy to assume the opposite. Some photocopies of a recent prescription, letters detailing diagnoses and appointment dates, and evidence of secondary care involvement (especially people with mental health conditions) provide good evidence; if you haven't provided anything, then the DA has to go mostly on that short assessment with you. You may be horribly unwell or disabled for 5 days a week, if you're having a 'good day' on the assessment however, then your claim is in trouble. Evidence, Evidence, Evidence; I can't stress that enough. Don't let the DWP have the easy option; the decision they make is heavily dependent on the report written by the health professional that assesses you. The decision maker at the DWP has no medical qualifications of any sort.

If you have disabilities that cause you to have problems getting out (especially severe MH conditions), ask for a home assessment. The way the system is, if you have a MH condition involving severe anxiety or depression, or agoraphobia; then you attend a clinic appointment, it can be used as evidence that you aren't as bad as you claim that you are. The reasoning is that you can't be that ill if you can get to a clinic appointment. It's profoundly unfair, and a large part of why I left. Once again; evidence is so important.

Don't assume that the health professional that sees you knows much about your condition. In a working and well-designed system, those with certain conditions would be given appointments with HP's with a specialism in that area. It ain't so. You could get a general or MH nurse, an Occupational Therapist, a Physio or a Paramedic. It's completely random. If you can bring along a health professional of your own, then do. I'd advise anyone against attending by themselves. That's not because I don't trust the DA's; the vast majority are good people. It's just easy to forget things, and people with severe MH problems or learning disabilities/Autism really need an advocate of some sort.

If you're asked to do a set of 12 exercises (it's called the Musculoskeletal exam, or MSK), be sensible! I had people trying to please me by trying to do these despite evident pain; tell the DA why it would be difficult for you to do it. If you cannot do it, just do what you can and explain why. Completing those ridiculous exercises at personal cost, especially pain, will count against you. Don't make stuff up to help your claim (they'll see straight through it, and assume that you're dishonest), but don't put yourself at risk of harm by doing something that you can't. The DA has to take your safety into consideration when assessing what you can and can't do. Once again, evidence is key. If you need aids or adaptations to walk, or need to wear wrist supports etc, then bring/wear them. Help the DA to help you. They normally will.

Talking of assessments, if you report any MH conditions at all, then the DA will be observing you throughout the assessment for a Mental State Examination (MSE). In my opinion, this is even more badly designed that the MSK. A HP, who may or may not have any MH experience at all, will continually assess your mood, behaviour, anxiety etc throughout the assessment. It's completely subjective. If you have a serious MH condition, if you are in pain, if you are distressed or anxious then let it show to the DA. The stiff upper lip is the worst possible approach.

We were told that those 45 minutes were key. If a consultant wrote that you couldn't do something, then you did it in that 45 minute assessment (good day or not) then the weight of evidence would be on the assessment.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that PIP discriminates against those with learning disabilities or MH conditions. Seriously. It's appalling. If you are turned down, then PLEASE appeal. You'd be surprised how many obtain PIP through appeal; it's often through providing further evidence. Don't give the DWP the chance to deny your rightful claim in the first place; provide that evidence when you first fill in the forms.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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RepentAtLeisure · 17/11/2016 02:06

LurkingHusband - Have you called and asked for an extension? Apparently they are often granted, and if you can get one it's worth it to make sure your form is as detailed as it can be.

BannedexPIPassessor · 17/11/2016 08:00

EveryDay, In my experience it certainly is.

LurkingHusband · 17/11/2016 09:17

RepentAtLeisure

LurkingHusband - Have you called and asked for an extension? Apparently they are often granted, and if you can get one it's worth it to make sure your form is as detailed as it can be.

Thanks for the thought Smile It's a tricky balance ... having the form uncompleted was becoming distressing for MrsLH - the last thing she needed was dragging it out any longer. I don't think our form could have been any more detailed - there were over 25 pages of scanned letters and documents which were referenced multiple times. The actual submission was over 50 pages, as all the questions were copied onto a separate page and answered there. The intention being that not only could the entire thing be reproduced at will, but that they can see it can be reproduced at will.

Also, ever since ESA back in 2012, we have been preparing for this. So already there were copies of letters and a lot of research (via the B&W forum) to make sure we had it all covered.

It shouldn't be necessary, but from our experiences with ESA I think an early signal that you mean business, and are prepared to take them on does no harm whatsoever.

The form(s) (separate copy to the decision maker) were sent Monday afternoon, and we got a text yesterday saying it has been received.

Just to echo about prescriptions (our list was over a page Shock), but the side effects should be mentioned if that affect an activity. There's no getting away from the fact that any anti-spasticity medications all result in muscle weakness, which has a great effect on day-to-day living. There's also a medicine chain where antibiotics prescribed for recurrent UTIs lead to digestion problems (diarrhoea) which in turn requires higher levels of care.

Hopefully we had a stroke of luck ... last month MrsLH was assessed for a new treatment for leg spasms. It was a very thorough consult, and the consultant kindly summarised their findings in a 2-page letter full of medical gobbledegook. So that letter was used as a reference for almost every explanation.

The first letter scanned was MrsLHs confirmation of DLA for life from the early 1990s, with a note that things have only got worse (i.e. losing sight) since then.

My minds a blur now, so I apologise for not backing it up, but in the last few weeks I did read a statistic that 69% of people receiving DLA are transferred to PIP. I also read that there have been assessments where - despite the statement that ESA and PIP are unrelated - it has been evident that the PIP assessors have had access to any data submitted for ESA. To be honest, that seems more sensible than trying to make them exclusive. Although I suspect the reason is they are trying to "catch people out" with contradictions in ESA/PIP. They're welcome to MrsLHs ESA details - we (obviously) kept a copy, and they actually show things were easier in 2012.

I'll post when we hear back from the DWP.

JoffreyBaratheon · 17/11/2016 09:42

EveryDay - it may depend on the area where you live. We suspect they arent doing so many where we live as neither son nor husband got called for a f2f and one got full, enhanced on both (although lost his life time award so now it's only 5 years) and the other lost at every stage including appeal. In other words - don't assume it means anything, having no f2f. We had none with both the success AND the failure. We had loads of evidence in one case yet lost because we were told we didn't have enough....

In the other we won, because we were told we had loads of evidence. That evidence they cited was one 5 word sentence scrawled by our GP (who has never even met my son as he was diagnosed years ago).

When I was going through this (twice, in less than a year), I'd get my hopes up at every little thing. In retrospect - don't do it. There is no sense, no consistency, no logic. The old DLA system worked. PIP simply is a failure. Don't waste your mental energy on trying to second guess the significance of anything.

Sunnysky2016 · 17/11/2016 10:31

Morning all. I just wanted to give a positive experience with a PIP assessment:-
I haven't read through the entire thread, but just wanted to say that I had a home assessment and my assessor (paramedic) was brilliant, and I was awarded enhanced rate daily living and standard mobility. I had my mental health support worker with me and I found the assessment easy going. I suffer from fibro, hyper mobility, early osteoarthritis, b12 def, heart murmur and am awaiting spinal surgery.
I filled in every available space about how not only my conditions but the medication affected me on a daily basis. I was told I needed have put so much info as they only take a few bullet points from each section I.e- can't hold a full saucepan
Fall in the shower
And so on.

unweavedrainbow · 17/11/2016 10:59

Lurking that 69% transfer is at "first instance" ie without appeal/MR. If you take appeals and mandatory reconsiderations into account the transfer rate is nearer to 85%-and this includes people who had very short or low level DLA awards in the first place. This is one of the reasons they attempted to out through the PIP cuts that failed-this transfer rate is much higher than expected. Generally, claimants who had high level or indefinite DLA awards are virtually guaranteed to transfer over to PIP without much bother, at least in terms of Daily Living. Mobility is a slightly different kettle of fish (far too many people who were on Indefinite HRM being dropped to Standard Mobility and having to appeal for my liking...) but I presume that you know the drill about wheelchairs. I volunteer filling in PIP forms for my sins and IME you shouldn't worry too much, it does sound like you have the form situation under control. Evidence is everything Most people I have helped in your DW situation have transferred over without too much bother.
Joffrey I'm sorry about your DH. You're right-the PIP system does discriminate against deaf people. There's no two ways about it. I worry about coming across as a bit "grandmother sucking eggsy" but the deaf community has been campaigning about this since the first set of PIP criteria was released back in 2010. The way PIP is around autism is a little strange. It is possible to get a decent award (my dh gets PIP for autism at Enhanced rate) but the time limiting of awards is weird. Although the general mantra of PIP for all conditions appears to be "higher level awards for shorter lengths of time". Weird.

LurkingHusband · 17/11/2016 11:06

I presume that you know the drill about wheelchairs

he drill is without one, MrsLH gets to watch the world go by Sad.

LurkingHusband · 17/11/2016 11:07

unweavedrainbow

p.s. tx for the detailed layout of stats Smile

unweavedrainbow · 17/11/2016 11:10

In general though, and statistically speaking, the stats around PIP are much, much nicer than first feared. In simple terms: the change from DLA to PIP isn't saving the government any money. At first instance claimants have about a 50% chance of being successful. Of those rejected about 25% are successful at appeal. In other words people have about a 3 in 4 chance of being successful. Way way higher than the government first anticipated.
PIP stats This doesn't include appeals statistics which are generally between 60% and 65% successful in favour of the claimant.

unweavedrainbow · 17/11/2016 11:15

Lurking I know how she feels, my powerchair is my life line. Without it I'd never leave the house. This PIP crap is my way of giving back something to the world.
The drill is that even if a claimant only uses a wheelchair some of the time they should still bring it to any f2f that they might have. If they don't and simply write on the form that they sometimes need one you can guarantee that the dwp will assume that they can walk 200m+ repeatedly, reliably and safely...

LurkingHusband · 17/11/2016 11:16

In simple terms: the change from DLA to PIP isn't saving the government any money

Well good job it wasn't meant to do that then, isn't it ? It was all about a better way to get help where it was needed.

unweavedrainbow · 17/11/2016 11:37

yeah right Hmm Wink

TheFreaksShallInheritTheEarth · 17/11/2016 11:42

Only just seen this... I'll forward it to my friend who has progressive MS but has just been awarded standard allowance. They had her down as being able to walk much further than she could. She never said she could walk that far and they never observed her doing it! (assessment was at home).

BannedexPIPassessor · 17/11/2016 12:02

Well good job it wasn't meant to do that then, isn't it ? It was all about a better way to get help where it was needed.

of course Wink
IDS being the reincarnation of a Victorian mill owner, bastard that he is.

JoffreyBaratheon · 17/11/2016 12:08

No - because even before they brought PIP in, they were well aware that certain disabilities, like hearing impairment, would be essentially factored out. The 'aiming it at the needs rather than the disability label' looks great in theory but the reality is, you have to hit limited, tight criteria which were poorly drafted and designed to exclude, rather than include.

Lurking I can see why you're naive (hoping against hope maybe) but time to wake up and smell the coffee. This was about tories cutting costs and pelasing the thicko Daily Mail readers. In fact, fraud re. DLA claimants was the lowest % of any benefit fraud. It doesn't stop people swinging the lead, because you no longer even need the breadth and depth of proof DLA required - ironic, eh?

It was a cynical cost cutting exercise and nothing whatsoever to do with getting help where needed.

Briarthorn · 17/11/2016 12:12

When the coalition were voted in I wrote to my (Tory) MP about the disability cuts and he replied that DLA needed to be cut to get people back to work Hmm

DLA - the benefit paid to children and one which in many cases enables people to work.

He also mentioned rampant fraud. That would be the less than one percent fraud and error, from the DWP's own figures.

JoffreyBaratheon · 17/11/2016 12:14

Indeed, Briar. Many disabled people have now lost their Motability car so had to give up their jobs. The Daily Mail ain't telling their punters that in a hurry.

LurkingHusband · 17/11/2016 12:22

Lurking I can see why you're naive

Not a word I would apply to myself ... I am fully aware of the ideology behind the dismantling of the welfare system. That the disabled fully deserve their lot due to their sin of being unable to swing the scythe for the state. I am also aware that the current trajectory if continued will see the language - and mechanism - of T4 revived in 21st century England (note exclusion of Scotland).

Is that aware enough ?

I never apologise for posting this picture, as there will always be people who were previously unaware. I urge people to try and keep their disgust down, and agree that we are already starting to see the sentiments espoused gathering pace. The English translation reads:

60,000 Reichsmark is what this person suffering from a hereditary defect costs the People's community during his lifetime. Fellow citizen, that is your money too. Read '[A] New People', the monthly magazine of the Bureau for Race Politics of the NSDAP

...to give people assistance with claiming PIP?
unweavedrainbow · 17/11/2016 12:32

Mourn for the dead and fight like hell for the living...

BannedexPIPassessor · 17/11/2016 12:41

This was about tories cutting costs and pelasing the thicko Daily Mail readers

Some of them aren't thick. Some of them are just vicious, and enjoy the thought of someone else suffering.

Dowser · 17/11/2016 12:57

My friend a paraplegic of 40 years has just been downgraded from high level dla to standard PIP.
How can that be.
She's presently in a general hospital with a broken leg that isn't healing and nursing care that isn't suitable for her needs.
Shocking.

LurkingHusband · 17/11/2016 13:32

My friend a paraplegic of 40 years has just been downgraded from high level dla to standard PIP.How can that be ?

PIP (and ESA) are bureaucratic exercises - not medical. Relying on the system to recognise "the obvious" is an exercise in futility.

Remember the only way anyone will know anything about a claimant - regardless of face to face assessments or otherwise - is from what is on the forms.

Namechangeemergency · 17/11/2016 13:38

I have just got back.
The assessor was polite and pleasant.
She took time to explain the process and apologise in advance for any upset caused by the questions.
I was allowed to help OH. I wasn't expecting that. When he was initially assessed for DLA the assessor told me to shut up.

If I took it on face value I would say it went well. But I can't take it on face value. I was unable to speak when I had my ATOS 7 years ago and I didn't score any points at all.(I wouldn't be applying for anything now but back then I was very unwell).

It was deeply stressful. OH had to admit to things he usually keeps from me. We were pulled out of our bubble of 'we are fine, its all fine'. The one that most of us have to keep us sane.

Now we have to wait. Unfortunately we do rely on OH's benefit. Its how we manage to get by on two sets of part time wages. I would prefer for us to be both working full time with money in the bank and a retirement to look forward to.
But as that isnt possible I will settle for enhanced Mobility please.

WRT to Deaf people.... A Deaf person would have found it difficult to get into the building. It has a phone intercom system and frosted windows. They would be left standing outside Hmm

JoffreyBaratheon · 17/11/2016 13:56

Yes, the appeals are held in really disabled friendly buildings. The court (with the handcuffed prisoner) we were sent to, it was on the 2nd floor.

I'm sure having to employ medical people, and legal people to act as 'judges' etc for all these thousands of appeals must cost more than - just continuing paying the DLA to those who are, you know, disabled...

JoffreyBaratheon · 17/11/2016 14:00

Lurking in that case your comment about getting £s to those who deserve it slightly misfired (assuming it was meant sarcastically).

I have no problem with that poster. My grandfather was amongst the British soldiers who liberated Belsen. He's long gone so as long as I'm here, I'm bearing witness for him. It's his great grandson with the disability. Always intrigues me how people who claim to be the most patriotic (DM readers again) are in fact - the very least. I think they forget what we spent years fighting against. I think they need reminding.