To think Toby Young deserves scorn for this article?

[BowieFan]

Apologies for linking to the Daily Mail, but I've used a service that denies them advertising revenue: <a class="break-all" href="https://anonym.to/?www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3869182/Why-Lefties-misty-eyed-movie-romanticises-Benefits-Britain-says-TOBY-YOUNG.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">anonym.to/?www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3869182/Why-Lefties-misty-eyed-movie-romanticises-Benefits-Britain-says-TOBY-YOUNG.html

Aside from the basic errors (it's 100minutes long, not nearly 3 hours), it's just an awful article. The fact that Toby Young thinks everyone claiming benefits is a smoking/gambling/drinking loudmouth is just offensive. I'm shocked - not that it was published - but that he thinks his opinion is the opinion of everyone.

I'd love to see him survive on benefits. I wonder if he'd be saying the same things then?

Oh, and many were forced off ESA and onto JSA, despite complaints by Doctors and Consultants.

From what Dawndonna has just posted:
between 2010 and 2011 10,600 sick and disabled people died within six weeks of their work capability assessment by Atos and the DWP
Aaaaaarrrrgh! And in the same period 12,345 people died right after having a coffee, talking to their mother, using an escalator or ironing a shirt!

IonaNE

Any evidence of that? No, of course not.

Many people killed themselves rather than face another assessment. Most people decided to just try and go without the money. Some people went onto JSA.

But you keep buying the Tory propaganda machine, eh? Don't take advice from the people who actually deal with this stuff.

I think you'll find that in most cases it was proven to be as a direct result of the loss of their benefits, Iona.

they did not come off benefits. They came off disability (or whatever it was/is called). Some of them will be on JSA; some of them will be in work (because JSA as opposed to disability will not be sufficient to maintain their previous lifestyle and so they'll have opted for working).

It would be very interesting to see the actual figures. I have no doubt that a minority did take the piss, but I strongly suspect that the majority weren't suddenly cured overnight.

A society should be judged by how it treats its most vulnerable.

IonaNE

And you don't think it's anything to do with Atos/DWP finding them fit for work even though their doctors (who know far better than 95% of the Atos workers) say they're not fit? Sure, some of them aren't linked, but most of them die due to the stress of their benefits being taken away - benefits they need to survive.

I helped a man who told the Atos worker that he'd thought of killing himself. Her response? "So why didn't you actually do it then? Why are you still alive?" and then when I saw her written report: "Failed to kill himself, made plans only twice." - Sorry, but that is fucking heartless. He did kill himself, so she got what she wanted in the end.

JSA won't be sufficient for the lifestyle they're living

Yeah, because that extra £32 a week is really making them take up drinking Champagne and Caviar, isn't it? Fucking hell.

Bowie it worries me that you say you help claimants . You really need to stop claiming such utter rubbish as fact . Sanctioned for being 35 seconds late ?? Total crap . By the way there are NO targets for sanctions .

Oldbutstillgotit

He was 35 seconds late. I was with him. His arse was on the chair of the desk at 10:30:35 (from the Job Centre's own clock) and she said he was too late to sign on for his 10:35 appointment. Not total crap - I was there.

There are targets for sanctions. Again, I've seen them. By the way, how much are the DWP paying you to spew their propaganda?

Old, you can repeat your mantra until you're blue in the face, but the evidence belies you.

Ooh. I was at sixth form with Paul Bernal.

most of them die due to the stress of their benefits being taken away - benefits they need to survive. I helped a man who told the Atos worker that he'd thought of killing himself

Bowie , I'm sorry but I think we have slipped into the realm of the Swiss Proposal (= give everyone the minimum wage without having to work and no questions asked, it's cheaper).

As for the extra £32 a week: I spend the best part of every single weekday working in an office; I commute there and in the end I just about break even (= e.g. I have enough to maintain a car which I use to get to work so I can earn money to maintain a car to get to work, and so round and round). I am not significantly better off than the people on the nearby estate who are on JSA, housing benefit, child benefit, tax credits and what-not - except they have all their time, too. I don't care about champagne and caviar but 9 hours every day, the best part of the day, for all my working life would be a valuable present from the Government, thank you. Just thinking of all the books I could read (from the library), the books I could write, the time I could spend walking on the beach in the sunshine (=free), the time I could spend with friends and family. So yeah, guess what: living on food from food banks and having all day to myself would be a better quality life.

OK, sorry to butt out but as I have to work tomorrow, too (see above), I'll have to turn in now.

By the way there are NO targets for sanctions

The Guardian uncovered evidence that the targets exist.

Bowie - he arrived at 10.30.35 for a 10. 35 appointment and was 35 seconds late ?? Hope your understanding of the guidance is better than your time- telling! Oh and by the way....where in the guidance does it give targets for sanctions ? Just trying to let people understand that there is another side to all this .

old why are you so resistant to established fact?

What's your beef?

Iona Feel free to have my ulcerative colitis, Arthritis and PTSD. I'd rather work thanks.

IonaNe - well put. I too have to get to bed as up at 6 tomorrow .

Toby Young's getting plenty of stick in the Daily Heil comments

But you don't have all your time on jsa, you're expected to spend the equivalent of a working week applying for jobs, and often applying for non existent jobs on the dreadful government job search website.

I have no idea if there are targets for sanctions, but they are often unfairly applied, and often over applied to the most vulnerable and least able to appeal.

Manumission - what ". Established fact"?

Oldbutstillgotit

Apologies, I made a typing error. His appointment was at 10:30 and he arrived at 10:30:35.

The fact that you're being so anal just proves you know I'm right, because you're resorting to deflecting. Still, if that's what gets you through the daily routine of sanctioning people then so be it.

The existence of sanctions old

www.theguardian.com/society/patrick-butler-cuts-blog/2015/feb/03/sanctions-staff-pressured-to-penalise-benefit-claimants-says-union

IonaNE

You do realise that on JSA claimants are expected to look for work 35 hours a week and are sanctioned for not doing so? That is practically a full time job in itself. And when you work out £70 a week over 35 hours, it's far less than you'd get in a proper job. Nobody wants to be on JSA or ESA for that matter. My claimants don't want to be disabled, they just are and they can't do anything about it.

Old, I've put up plenty of evidence, provided by reliable sources. One includes and in house newsletter. I'd try reading it. The government have admitted to targets, so it's pointless you saying they don't exist. We all know they do. You're being ridiculous, we've said we accept that you personally don't sanction, but there are targets and others do.

I thought Toby Young seemed odius when he was on come dine with me, making guests wait for him to cook while he acted trophy husband and bathed the kids . Saw him in Rick Steins restaurant in Padstow this summer. Acted like lord of the manor. Not nice.