'It might not have been rape, she might have had sex and regretted it afterwards'

[BravoHopeful]

This statement makes no sense. If you had consensual sex and the next day regretted it, why on earth would you go through the whole horrible experience of reporting it to the police and everything that follows? You would just move on and put it behind you.

It's always trotted out as a likely explanation in 'date rape' type cases. But it makes no sense whatsoever. AIBU?

Someone very close to me was raped over 20 years ago.

I won't say too much incase that person is a mumsnetter.

It was within a relationship but in obviously horrific circumstances, and there was evidence, physical injuries, ripped clothing, covered in bodily fluids.

That man was found guilty of some offences but still found not guilty of the rape and her reputation was dragged through the mud.

I'm not convinced we've moved on at all since then.

We haven't. I thought we had with Ched Evans but that appeal has just turned the clock back.

Venus I totally agree, sorry reading back that came across badly but not how it was intended.

I fully agree that rape is rape, whatever type of person society deems you to be it doesn't take anything away from the offence.

Saying certain types of women are less worthy of being believed is damaging for ALL women.

Korma Do you think that promiscuous woman case shouldn't go to court? Do you believe it isn't rape or that the rapist should go free?

If you don't believe that, please sign the petition.

That's why rape myths need to disappear.

The way I'm trying to say it is, where one person doesn't take rape in a hotel room seriously, because the 'evidence' points to that she'd been in hotels with men before. There'll be another person not taking rape within a relationship seriously because they'd had regular sex.

We need to draw a line that rape is rape no matter what the circumstances.

YY Lighthouse. And banning sexual history evidence would help that in my opinion. It would send a message that it has no bearing on whether a woman has been raped on the occasion which is the subject of the trial.

No, felas. Can't you quite believe that more than one person would share my views?!

pink I'm not sure why you think you're in a position to decide what the rest of the population will find simple or otherwise. Pontificating in such an absolute way may sound impressive in your little bubble here but it won't cut ice in the real world - where feminism is failing to make its points.

I understand the 'I believe you' campaign. I understand the benefits. I understand the drawbacks. Maybe MNHQ doesn't. I don't know.

Ok thanks slender

Slender I'm struggling to understand what your views are exactly?

All I've seen from some people is

Some men accidentally rape women
Women could protect themselves from rape if they behaved nicely
Women lie a lot about rape which is a huge from for men

Slender what do you think we should do about the 5% conviction rate for rape? Or are you ok with it.

Some women really are like Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Korma - "The argument up thread is that it is men who needed educating, women can do as they want."

What do you mean by "women can do as they want"? You seem to be using this as an indication of disapproval on your part, and from your posts upthread, it seems like you think that women shouldn't be able to do what they want - where doing what they want could be wearing skimpy clothes, drinking, having consensual sex with different men - and still be able to bring complaints of rape to the police.

So we're back to what I think is the key issue that is making so many of the rest of us so unhappy with your views - do you really believe that certain behaviours - choices of clothing, numbers of sexual partners, drinking - should make a women ineligible to make a complaint of rape?

Because that's what your views appear to come down to.

Looks like the thread is a bit more honest now. Truth is there are people who think less of women who get drunk, have casual sex, arent just having missionary position sex, go to hotels, wear low cut tops/short skirts, flirt, etc etc.

This is what I was surrounded by when I was first sexually active. I lived in a bigoted religious community. I had many (much less eloquent) debates like this at home as a teenager. I was furious when girls were referred to as tarts, promiscuous etc. I heard that if you have one night stands then it's probably not that big a deal to be raped. I rebutted this and saw it for the crap it was. But when I was raped at 19 I knew exactly where I stood. I knew I'd got my come uppance.

It was a nightmare. A nightmare that ended and started again when I tried to crawl away thinking he was asleep.

Nothing about my behaviour would elicit sympathy from those who feel a need for a hierarchical moralising approach to rape. But I was still scared, I was humiliated, i was badly hurt. How it affects you isn't related to how you live otherwise.

I cannot believe 20 years later the same shite is being spouted.

It's all a giant waste of breath. Its all tied up with horrible judging moralising about how women should behave.

It is more honest. Korma can hide behind the law as much as he/she likes, but what is basically coming out is that he/she believes that "promiscuous women in hotels" should just accept that rape is a relatively likely outcome, and not bother to seek justice. He/she seems unconcerned that women are raped and men get away with it as long as it is the right sort of woman who gets raped, not ones he/she might have sympathy for.

slender I'm sure some people don't understand consent, the same way some people don't understand how to use a train - I believe it's one of those things that the vast majority of the population understand with the odd person who just doesn't grasp it. I certainly don't think it's the normal/default way of thinking.

What I'm saying is if people don't understand concerns then they should not be having sexual relations with others as they are deemed a risk, until they're on a place where they do understand it. The same way those don't understand how to use a train shouldn't until they too grasp how to do it properly.

Fuckingitup I'm sorry that happened.

I often wonder just how some people organise different rapes in their minds.

If I go out and get drunk two weeks in a row and have one night stands, then on the third week I do the same, but this time after sex I fall asleep and the man says "don't fall asleep bitch", busts my nose, gives me two black eyes and rapes me, I try to fight him off and he breaks my arm, am I more or less deserving of being believed?

Now take away the bruises and broken bones, is it less horrific if he just said "don't fall asleep bitch or I'll break your nose" pinned me down and raped me? If I was too shocked and scared to move.

That's what we're dealing with here and some of you in the second scenario are talking about grey areas.

The third scenario is I suppose where I fall asleep and wake up to find him raping me.

Still rape though.

That's not practical though is it pink. I'm not sure if you're sceptical and saying 'those people who don't want to understand it' or if you really do believe there are sexual partners out there who could run into problems. I disagree with you that only people with very very low iq (such that public transport is beyond them) could struggle here. The threads I have seen from women who aren't sure if they gave consent or could have been reasonably thought to have given consent were articulate. It seems to be a problem of giving the wrong impression deliberately for one reason or another, or men mistakenly taking participation as a sign of enthusiasm for more when it wasn't meant that way at all. Those people aren't going to not have sex so you'd be much better off educating everyone.

It used to be considered quite funny and acceptable for women in films to slap their male partners cheek if he behaved like a cad. As a result of changing attitudes to dv this doesn't seem so trivial or acceptable now. If education around consent was widespread I think it could accomplish something. Wouldn't stop people who have the intent to rape but might make irresponsible jack the lad who is out to get laid think 'i had better stop and make a really big deal of asking about sex because some women go bat shit crazy if you don't go through the motions'.

I don't think he would seriously believe he doesn't know exactly what she wanted and this is another problem- when feminists say ' if in doubt ask' they aren't reckoning on the hugely egotistical and complacent mindset of many men.

But people who can't use trains should be taught how to trains given the difficulties of banning them...

I keep trying not to read this thread but it plays on my mind and I end up coming back to it. The myths trotted out here are similar to the crap that went through my head for years and years afterwards. I'd internalised the misogyny without ever realising it.

I do know now, on an intellectual level at least, that it wasn't my fault and if it hadn't been me it would have been someone else. The rape apologists on this thread make it difficult to accept this on a deeper level, when I wake up screaming and want to hurt myself.

I know that good Sex and Relationships education exists in some of our schools because I teach it to Year 9s and Year 11s. On its own, though, it will never be the change we need to see because of the ingrained culture. Part of that culture is the fact that the word 'feminist' can be thrown around as if it is an insult.

The threads I have seen from women who aren't sure if they gave consent or could have been reasonably thought to have given consent were articulate.

Slender you have referred a few times to women who are not sure whether they have been raped to illustrate how confusing consent is.

But I think with a lot of women they are confused precisely because of the rape myths and bad advice they are surrounded by - you know all the rubbish littering this thread. Telling them how they feel is wrong. (And all the other things like it being difficult to accept you matter so little, or being traumatised, denial etc)

Its not right to say because a woman isn't sure how to describe what happened that consent is a grey area.

Marble

Fuckingitup that's exactly right.

I questioned whether I was really raped. I've replayed it thinking I could have maybe head butted him, but he'd have probably head butted me back. I could have screamed really loud, he'd have probably stopped then.

I question this because I know there'll be people out there who think it wasn't really rape.

I really don't think it is possible to educate men to not rape. Rapists know exactly what they are doing. Some may not think of it as rape, but they know damn well that they are harming someone.

What we need to do is punish rapists. All rapists. That will not make them better people, but they won't be able to rape in prison (if prisons are adequately sex-segregated, that is), also, some rapists will choose to not rape anymore for fear of consequences.

Educating the general public on what constitutes rape and that rape myths are untrue might help in that endeavour, but the goal has to be more punishment for rapists, not some miraculous lightbulb moment where rapists understand that what they do is rape and immediately stop doing it.

Perhaps, as a long-term plan, you can try to make men evolve more empathy for women so that they won't want to rape in the first place, but that will take a lot of time, money, and completely changing all media.

Lighthouse I didn't scream either, I was frozen. I sometimes have dreams about trying to scream when I can't, I think it might be related to that.

I agree with you Vestal, but in order to get any more than the tiniest minority of rapists punished we have to tackle the rape myths that prevail even among police, the CPS and defence barristers, let alone the general public. Or the fuckers will keep getting away with it.