'It might not have been rape, she might have had sex and regretted it afterwards'

[BravoHopeful]

This statement makes no sense. If you had consensual sex and the next day regretted it, why on earth would you go through the whole horrible experience of reporting it to the police and everything that follows? You would just move on and put it behind you.

It's always trotted out as a likely explanation in 'date rape' type cases. But it makes no sense whatsoever. AIBU?

Do people actually believe that, that we're just not making enough fucking effort to fight them off? Seriously. When I lay paralysed with fear while God knows how many stone of my dead drunk boyfriend held me down and raped me it didn't cross my mind that I was just a silly girl not making enough effort to dodge that cock! How remiss of me not to remember my training in weight lifting and escapology. Must try harder.

The men that don't want to ask are quite aware that they are pushing it. They don't care about the woman or what's best for her, they just want a get out clause.

Because you know all men. And you have experience of all men as sexual partners. And you have personal extensive experience of every sexual encounter imaginable.

Bollocks.

Any sentence that starts like this is probably inaccurate and sexist:
'Women want...
'All women care about is...
'Woman don't care about...
'Women who do this always...
'All men care about is....
'Men who do this are always...'

I am not trying to say that men always do anything or even that things are different most of the time to how they're being presented on this thread. So I'm not attempting to speak for all women about all men. Feminists, on the other hand, seem to think they have an exhaustive knowledge of 'men and their ways' as if they were cattle. It reminds me of mothers who have parented perhaps three children thinking they know every child and all about parenting as a result. No, our experiences are more limited than that as previous threads here as illustrated.

have illustrated

I remember being in the pub a few years ago and we were talking about that case where i think a woman's partner had gouged her eyes out?

The first thing my friend, who is honestly a nice normal guy, said 'what I don't understand is why these women stay with these blokes'. No real mention of the man's atrocious behaviour, nope, it's the woman's fault for staying with them.

The idea of women being responsible for men's behaviour is so deeply ingrained into our society.

But slender you don't need to 'know all men' to know that that statement is true?

If any man anywhere cared about his partners feelings, he would ensure that their partner wanted to carry on with sex. Most men do. You seem to be determined to make excuses for those who don't.

Any sentence that starts like this is probably inaccurate and sexist:

Feminists, on the other hand, seem to think...

isitadouble

Not sure if this will come across well, but in the pub discussion what you saw was an example of men expressing disbelief that women can't see what utter pricks some men are. So they're not blaming her for his actions rather they seem to accept that other men are capable of inhuman behaviour and expect women would avoid such men. In my experience men distrust other men greatly and they do blame each other when they get mixed up with the wrong sort of people and etc.

Double, 'Ok. Can you detail exactly what 'education' we should be giving to women on preventing rape?' From the Womens Aid website: Working with teachers and schools to encourage young people to identify abuse and build healthy, respectful relationships. There is also a questionnaire that might help women identify if they are in an abusive relationship.

Virgin I'm going to have a male friend over my house later and we'll be alone together. If he decides he is going to rape me tonight then how will I stop him? He's much bigger and stronger than me. You tell me! I assume you have made some basic risk assessments.

The first thing my friend, who is honestly a nice normal guy, said 'what I don't understand is why these women stay with these blokes'. No real mention of the man's atrocious behaviour, nope, it's the woman's fault for staying with them.

There may have been more to it but that is not implicit in someone expressing that they can't understand it.

I remember about 15 years ago when the Little Mo/Trevor spousal abuse storyline was on EastEnders, overhearing two nearby young women in my workplace discussing Mo, and the comments were "She's thick...", "I know, I would have been out of there..."

Now that understandably could be called victim-blaming. That aside, I think it is the sort of thing many people might not get their heads around unless if they have some personal experience of it.

Slender it quiet patiently says 'the men who' and not ALL men

men who don't care about consent aren't really defensible

Not sure if this will come across well, but in the pub discussion what you saw was an example of men expressing disbelief that women can't see what utter pricks some men are. So they're not blaming her for his actions rather they seem to accept that other men are capable of inhuman behaviour and expect women would avoid such men.

I get what you are saying and there definitely is a bit if that. The thing that is so depressing is that there just seems to be this inevitability that men will beat the shit out their wives, gouge their eyes out, rape them. And that therefore its up to women to avoid it, rather than try and raise our males up not to perpetrate it. There was nothing in the conversation (well not until I brought it up) about why this guy thought that it was ok to be systematically violent towards the person he is supposed to love over such a period of time.

The whole 'inevitability' thing pisses me off wrt prostitution as well. 'Its the world's oldest profession, you will never be able to stop it's etc - but that might be a whole other thread

I assume you have made some basic risk assessments

O rly? And what does a rape risk assessment look like?

Thank you ghosty. I'll give slender the benefit of the doubt and assume she needs to read more carefully too. It wouldn't be fair to assume that she just used my comment as an excuse to have a cheap dig at feminists. Not when she is clearly such a thoughtful and reasonable person in every other way.

JAPAB, What those women said about little Mo, which you acknowledge is victim blaming, is practically the same as people who ignorantly and idly ponder "why didn't she just leave"? I think assuming that you probably don't have a clue about the psychology of someone in an abusive relationship would be a good start.

I think assuming that you probably don't have a clue about the psychology of someone in an abusive relationship would be a good start. Just as we can't assume everyone is in a loving and respectful relationship, and has capacity to understand consent.

If someone doesn't have the 'capacity 'to understand the complicated concept of consent then they shouldn't be having sex as they are at serious risk of raping someone.

Did you read the rape myths that mumsnet posted?

The bit about rape being about power and control is very relevant here. That's why I posted about my abusive relationship earlier. Men do understand about consent, but some choose to rape anyway. The man that raped me didn't do it because he wanted sex and got confused, it was about control.

Yes we can try educate girls about abusive relationships, how to spot the signs early on etc. What we can't do is tell women how not to get raped.

Women have been told not to get raped for years, it's not working, so maybe it's time to start teaching boys from early on not to rape.

Just as we can't assume everyone is in a loving and respectful relationship, and has capacity to understand consent.

Ah yes, only middle class men have the capacity for this

What exactly is meant by not having "capacity to understand consent"? Because it sounds suspiciously like letting rapists get away with rape to me.

What exactly is meant by not having "capacity to understand consent"? Because it sounds suspiciously like letting rapists get away with rape to me.

Yep. Next it will become acceptable for rapists to stand up in court and say "I honestly didn't realise she hadn't consented. You must understand that consent is a difficult concept for me to grasp." Oh wait...

Capacity = mental health issues, under influence of drink or drugs.

A drunk person lacks the capacity to drive safely. That's why we prosecute those who try to do it.

Similarly, a man who can't understand consent should be prosecuted if he goes ahead and has sex regardless. It doesn't make it a grey area.

We can try and raise our daughters to have high esteem and high expectations across the board - careers, respectful relationships, etc. We can, because we know it's important. Some don't.

Subsequently, you can warn women and girls as much as you like. (Don't go home alone, get in that car, etc.). Statistically it won't help at all. And the very real downside is that it will continue to focus the problem on avoidance rather than prevention. Which doesn't work.

Warn away. But show your sons, brothers, husbands the many, many lists of rape myths online. Change their perception, ask them to spread the word. It's prevent, not avoid, which will lower the stats.

So how do you stop men raping?

So these rapists who rape because they take drugs or drink or have mh issues just don't understand consent?

Bullshit.

First it was working class men are to dumb to understand consent now its another excuse.