'It might not have been rape, she might have had sex and regretted it afterwards'

[BravoHopeful]

This statement makes no sense. If you had consensual sex and the next day regretted it, why on earth would you go through the whole horrible experience of reporting it to the police and everything that follows? You would just move on and put it behind you.

It's always trotted out as a likely explanation in 'date rape' type cases. But it makes no sense whatsoever. AIBU?

If someone doesn't have the 'capacity 'to understand the complicatedhmm concept of consent then they shouldn't be having sex as they are at serious risk of raping someone.

Yes. Exactly. And people who cannot understand consent when drunk should not drink alcohol.

Indeed, men in general should not walk home alone at night. They might rape a woman.

Concerning the thread topic ... why WOULD a woman regret consensual sex afterwards?

There is no reason to "regret" something that was merely boring and at worst could be considered a waste of time so much that one would drag the person one did it with to court.

A man who claims a woman "regretted" sex with him admits that he is so spectacularly shitty in bed that a woman would drag him to court over it. Which is, frankly, not believable, unless "being bad in bed" implies extreme violence that the man thinks was consented to by the act of consenting to sex. Which would then mean that it actually WAS rape.

Interestingly those women who allegedly just "regret" allegedly consensual sex are rarely ever married, in a relationship, nuns or vestal virgins or the like, where it would be plausible that a) the man was not aware of the reasons sex would have negative consequences for them and b) they would have strong reasons to claim that they didn't consent.

They seem to be mostly single women who often have sex with men they don't know that well. (A fact which is then used to victim-blame). Why on earth would such a woman be so upset about sex that was just bad in the way consensual sex can be bad that she wants to sue? That makes no sense at all.

So how do you stop men raping?

Personally, I am very fond of the idea to just make the act of inserting a penis into a woman illegal.

People would still be able to have consensual sex, but rapists would not be able to get away with claiming that it was consensual.

Very easy. Men who are afraid they would wrongly be accused of rape can just stay at home and be celibate, that's what women who are afraid they might be raped do at the moment.

So how do you stop men raping?

Well we could start with the conviction rate. 5.7 percent or something like that isn't really a deterrent.

We could stop the myth that rape is something that happens in a dark alley and being honest about what rape is instead of sweeping it under the rug.

We could stop the ingrained idea that men are entitled to sex and have little control over their penises.

We could tackle a culture of sexual harassment in general.

I could think of many more.

So how do you stop men raping?

You start with the rape myths. 'She asked for it, dressed like that', 'she was hammered, what do you expect'. You make 'ordinary men' question their mates when they say 'cor, look at the rack on that' down the pub. Get 'normal blokes' involved. When you check out the pro-Ched comments on social media - get men to understand it's unacceptable. And why. Get them to call it out. And say why. Raise awareness.

Oh and the very recent (Ched) myth that a) she was used to one night stands, so go figure ( part of the initial defence, disallowed. Not because they thought it was wrong to include, but because they couldn't prove it).
b) she had sex 2 weeks after, so couldn't have been raped.

Both rape myths. Both relying on the fact that a jury of 'ordinary people' would buy it.

Educating women will, at the very best , mean that the rapist just rapes a different woman. One who is an easier target for him.

Educating men is what will prevent rape.

Yes. Stronger instruction to juries about what kind of arguments should be discounted and better definition in law of active consent. Possibly a move to judge led trials rather than jury trials. Get rid of the "reasonable belief" defence.

I assume you have made some basic risk assessments.

What exactly does a rape risk assessment look like?

*So how do you stop men raping?
Everything others have said.

People like many on this thread making excuses for rapists would be a really good start though

How could we stop some men from raping? Well, by improving conviction rates. The average convicted rapist has 6 rapes to his name (at least in the US). If we actually convicted them for the first offence and locked them up for a long, long time, it would prevent the next 5, which would at least be a step in the right direction.

But to do this, amongst other things, we'd have to stop jurors believing crappy rape myths. Which is why threads like this are so important. We may not be able to shift the likes of Korma and Silent who are completely entrenched in their views, but if a few lurkers assess their position (especially in the light of the posts made by very, very brave women on this thread who've talked about their own rapes), we will have done some good.

A few jurors able to say, "hang on a minute - a complete stranger lets himself into a hotel room in the dark and doesn't say anything at all to a very drunk woman and penetrates her from behind... She may have said "fuck me harder" but what is the likelihood that she even knew it was a different man from the man she'd entered the room with?" A few more jurors able to say "you know, from where I'm sitting, I don't think that does look like reasonable belief..." What would happen then?

*Educating women will, at the very best , mean that the rapist just rapes a different woman. One who is an easier target for him.

Educating men is what will prevent rape*

Given that rapists don't give a fuck about you educating them, this seems like an excellent reason to educate every woman alive.

I do however think education around issues of consent would help raise awareness of acceptable behaviour in men who do not have an explicit desire or intention to rape anyone but who are nevertheless encouraged by the culture to see women as creatures to persuade and seduce into bed. But all the education in the world won't stop a true blue rapist anymore than it would prevent a murder. I'm amazed you think it would.

Did you miss my use of the words 'at the very best'? Most rapes are not avoidable by educating women.

I don't mean that men should be educated about consent. Any normal man already knows what consent is. Men don't go around robbing people because they couldn't understand the concept of consent in gift giving, for example. They know perfectly well and I'm not going to infantilise them.

No. Men need educating, from birth, about the fact that women are human beings who deserve exactly the same amount of respect and courtesy that they do. That women are autonomous human beings, and that transgressing that autonomy by penetrating or even just touching them without consent is utterly wrong, no matter what the situation.

In other words, teach men not to view women as inferior. Because right now, most men do hold that view to some extent, whether they realise it or not. Not all men rape, but how many talk over women? Dismiss women's views? Treat women as if we have no right to take up space in the world?

Oh so rapists are just born that way, are they, slender?

Slender

If Ched Evans had been convicted of rape again it would have sent a very powerful message. To men. All men. Those men, like the jury, who buy the mythology of rape culture.

The defence wanted to admit the 'sexual past' evidence precisely to exploit people's belief that the behaviour of a victim can account for a rapist's intentions. That can be countered.

I don't mean that men should be educated about consent. Any normal man already knows what consent is. Men don't go around robbing people because they couldn't understand the concept of consent in gift giving, for example.

They might know what it is as a concept - agreeing to something free from threat or incapacity - but not know that not saying no or making any negative motions will not necessarily mean that things are being agreed to or allowed.

And while most of us here might be familiar with feminist research about freezing and how people don't always behave as the layperson might think they would if something is unwanted, well the layperson might not know this.

Do they get similarly confused about stealing vs gift giving? Would they steal from a friend because the friend was too drunk to say no?

No? Then they're not fucking confused about this.

Men run the world. Every government, even major corporation is dominates by men. They're not fucking stupid.

The myth that men are confused about rape and consent is promoted (and believed) so widely because it is convenient for rapists and we live in a rape culture. But it had nothing at all to do with the truth. Men know what consent is. They don't ask when their victim freezes because they know they know the answer will be no.

WomanWithAltitude If someone knows that the other person is too drunk to say no, and knows that consent essentially means 'agreeing to something free from threat or incapacity', then there should be no confusion in this particular example.

But that's one of the scenarios that men apparently find 'confusing'. Also on this thread people have raised 'prick teasing' (saying yes to one thing, but no to sex) as a 'grey area'.

Men who have sex with frozen women are no different to the ones who have sex with blind drunk women. They know full well that if she had the chance and was asked for consent, she wouldn't give it.

Exactly Woman. Men are happy to shout about their intelligence until it seems it comes to quite simple tasks like making sure you're not raping someone.

I'm really not buying this "men just don't get consent" bullshit. How come women manage just fine? Even if it was true, the underlying tones of "its fine if they don't get it" is disturbing.

How to Stop Men Raping 101 -

1. Stop making excuses for rapists. Just stop. Stop figuring out reasonable answers as to why rape is fine. Stop putting the onus on women to put a stop to this. It's a load of crap and not good for anyone

Could we all just please start with that and see where we get to? The worst that could happen is that some men abstain from sex. I know to some that possibly the worst thing you could ask a male to do, but perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing if men didn't think their cocks were the most important thing in the planet

venus You couldn't be well educated about an evil crime and choose to do it anyway? Do you really think a murderer murders because he doesn't know much about it?

datun and I agree but that's not rapists you're educating.

woman I don't agree with your remarks that liken sex to gift-giving. When threads crop up entitled 'Was this rape' but never 'Was this a gift?, don't you think there might be a difference? I do agree that education has a part to play in developing the conscience of a nation, irrespective of gender. But sadly I think that the great majority of rapists know exactly what they're doing and don't give a damn. Perhaps if they'd grown up in a different culture it would be different though. It can't hurt to try. But let's not faff about saying it's pointless for women to change their behaviour when it should be men...for most rapists it's not going to be men who change and women are entitled to do everything they consider worth doing to ensure that they are not that rapist's victim.

I'm entirely in favour of a very heavy jail sentence for rapists. However I think it's very, very important that the justice system is perceived as genuinely trying a case rather than parroting 'I believe you' to a victim. Feminists seem to feel it is somehow misogynistic to suggest a case needs to be heard first. I don't think the best route to a just system is via a forced pendulum-swing in the other direction from the chauvinism we have had in the past. Not because rapists ought to be protected but because the justice system is there to protect men and women, and men are just men until there is a guilty verdict. The feminist attitude that the court is trying a rapist who is certain to be a rapist if the case has got to court. As true as this may be, it's not how justice should work and it's not going to work out for feminism either. Extreme views that privilege one group in society cause a defensive knee-jerk reaction in others which doesn't help the feminist cause.

My own theory is that men identify with rapists because they perceive that it could be them in the dock on a false rape allegation. They don't stop to think about how often false allegations occur. They just want to know there would be protection for them if it happened and they realise that feminists are trying to make it impossible to say 'I know you might not have done this' because it clashes with 'I believe you'.

selnder I suggest you read the link MNHQ posted and research why the "we believe you" campaign was launched in the first place and how it benefits victims.

My own theory is that men identify with rapists because they perceive that it could be them in the dock on a false rape allegation. They don't stop to think about how often false allegations occur.

I agree with you, but you seem to be blaming feminists and the "we believe you" campaign for this? Feminists aren't the ones perpetuating rape myths that lead to the "false allegation" beliefs/worries. Men feel this way because of internalised misogyny and patriarchal values. I also think the only kind of men who worry about this are probably subconsciously worried that they have been in less than perfect sexual situations (consent wise) and don't like the thought of seeing themselves as a rapist. The answer then is not to pander to them that consent is a grey area, but to ask them to look at their own behaviour with a view to modifying it to be more respectful of women.

But if there are all these many rapey rapist-sympathising men as you say slender, and I don't disagree with you on that, perhaps it's more about what they've been socialised to believe about women rather than something utterly inevitable, and the tide could be turned?

Obviously you see it differently, when I say I agree with you I mean I agree that a lot of men worry about being falsely accused. But I agree with pinky that it's generally because they've been in situations where their own behaviour was not the best.