'It might not have been rape, she might have had sex and regretted it afterwards'

[BravoHopeful]

This statement makes no sense. If you had consensual sex and the next day regretted it, why on earth would you go through the whole horrible experience of reporting it to the police and everything that follows? You would just move on and put it behind you.

It's always trotted out as a likely explanation in 'date rape' type cases. But it makes no sense whatsoever. AIBU?

BUT whenever someone suggests women be educated theres uproar and demands only men need educating, and accusations of being rape apologists

Eh? Some people spend time on here and in real life educating women on abuse. I've never heard anyone claim that only men need educating on that score, in fact, abuser programmes don't have a very high success rate.

Perhaps you are confusing that with the fact that women can take care of their personal safety, but they can't actually stop rape happening, ultimately only men can do that.

YY manon, no one has ever objected about women identifying abuse but I take umbridge on the "how not to get raped" advice

Omg
If your son cannot ask his partner if she wants sex then I strongly suggest he doesn't engage in sexual activity, seriously.

Ffs if he can't ' read' body language and I really disbelieve this, then tell him to open his bloody mouth!!!!

If you have visitors does your son make them a cup of tea without first asking and if they don't drink it, would he then force it down their throat?

No he would open his mouth and ask ' would you like a cup of tea?'

You need to google the tea analogy btw.

Stop making excuses for rapists.

But why is it so hard to ask? If you're not sure because your partner is a bit quiet/ still is it that hard to ask if they're OK? If yes, carry on, if no, bloody stop. That also covers what to do if you struggle to read body language, don't let the situation be ambiguous, make sure.

I don't get it either Cheshire. We're built to innately pick up when others feel uncomfortable and read natural body language. It really isn't tough. If someone continues sex sensing their partner is MN the comfortable they are a selfish twat at best, rapist at worst

*isnt

Of course I know why. It's because it's more important that the guy gets sex than if the woman gets hurt. After all, he may have bought her a drink and she owes him right?!

Exactly! The feelings and actions of a penis are worth far more than those of a woman of course. If men don't routinely stick their cocks in whatever they please the world will implode don't you know

But why is it so hard to ask? If you're not sure

And there's the rub. What if you're not sure? And no, it's not hard to ask. If you are saying men should always ask, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with it. But don't talk about how hard something is to say when there's no consensus around whether it should be said at all in the first place.

The rest of the sentence: because your partner is a bit quiet/ still

That's very subjective and will be influenced by the man's cultural background and previous experience with other partners as to what he views as normal.

Outright resistance or a complete lack of participation may be easy enough to spot but half-heartedness might not be interpreted in the same way by everyone. I think we need research into that.

It also assumes that women express what they are feeling. We know from previous threads (if nothing else) that some women do not act in accordance with how they feel but sometimes give the impression they're enjoying something when they're not. Unfortunately, pretending to enjoy something in the here and now doesn't mean you want to have sex next (although it would be more likely to mean this if you were being genuine). There is room for a clash of expectations (that might not be discovered until after penetration) if one party assumes that enthusiastic sexual contact leads naturally to penetrative sex while the other is under the impression that no man would do that without asking first. I think as women we ought to sort out what we do expect in that respect, and then publicise it.

Deliberately misleading signals are going to have a significant effect whether the man is 'in doubt' about what's expected. I'm not for one moment blaming women for pretending - it's sad that they should ever be in that position. But obviously, if the appropriateness of seeking verbal consent rests on the clause 'if you're in doubt' (as implied in the sentence quoted), then someone pretending to be enthusiastic when they are not is going to make a huge difference to whether there is reasonable cause for doubt.

This is not as impossible a situation as you're making out.

What if you're not sure?

Then ask. Good grief how is this hard?

I think we need research into that.

No we don't. We need to educate men that even if their partner seems half hearted about sex that maybe they should consider not going on. Educate them that there's more important things than their sexual gratification.

if one party assumes that enthusiastic sexual contact leads naturally to penetrative sex while the other is under the impression that no man would do that without asking first. I think as women we ought to sort out what we do expect in that respect, and then publicise it.

FFS. Why is it always up to women to take the lead on it being raped?
See my above comment re education of men

This is not as impossible a situation as you're making out

I'll think you'll find you're the one complicating consent

If a woman pretends she's enjoying it and fakes enthusiasm for whatever reason, then no, the man isn't at fault. But this isn't usually the case is if? It's fight, flight or freeze, not pretend.

But, if she's just there, that doesn't mean you can use her as a wank sock so yes, you bloody ask in one way or another.

And it is being clear, ask before doing new things aka stuff you haven't established consent for.

I get it when you say that reading non verbal cues can be difficult, I struggle with it so I ask my (male) partner what he wants at various point, i don't just proceed with whatever, his is incorporated in foreplay/ sex. He also does the same with me as I can be quiet at times.

I think that's the crux of it though Cheshire. The men that don't want to ask are quite aware that they are pushing it. They don't care about the woman or what's best for her, they just want a get out clause.

Sorry for the grammar mistakes btw.

Also the cultural issues generally stem from very misogynistic cultures where a woman's consent is not seen as necessary.

Plus, educating women while good, it isn't preventing rape and has failed to do for hundreds of years so let's educate men instead. The onus was placed on women to prevent rape, we can't so now men realise they have to shoulder the responsibility. Wow, I'm sure they're balls will shrivel because of the pressure.

educating women while good, it isn't preventing rape and has failed to do for hundreds of years so let's educate men instead. No. Lets educate men AND women.

But women are taught since childhood/ teenage years not to wear this and that, don't drink, don't walk alone etc. And it hasn't done much so now we should focus on men, not exclusively but mostly them.

What we should teach women is that they're worth more than this.

it hasn't done much so now but we know don't how many attacks have been prevented so we can't say that

Comfort- why do women need educating on the prevention of rape?
Men commit rape so they need educating that it is wrong.

Ffs I'm absolutely sick and tired of being told its my ducking job to stop rapist.

I was raped as a young child by a male relative I suppose if I'd been educated it wouldn't have happened.
As it is I had no knowledge what so ever of anything to do with sex, probably because I was far too young to be facing any sort of sexual contact.

And please stop making fucking excuses for men's shitty behaviour.

How are women supposed to protect themselves from being raped?

Rapists don't have horns. They don't have the letter R tattooed on their forehead. They don't have flashing warning lights.

You do realise that men are, on the whole, a lot bigger and stronger than women? So how exactly are we supposed to stop one from raping us if he's decided that's what he going to do?

I'm going to have a male friend over my house later and we'll be alone together. If he decides he is going to rape me tonight then how will I stop him? He's much bigger and stronger than me.

The men that don't want to ask are quite aware that they are pushing it. They don't care about the woman or what's best for her, they just want a get out clause.

Exactly. A man who doesn't give a shit about the woman's feelings, if in a situation where he is not sure if his partner actually all that up for it, will not ask her how she is feeling. Because then if she says the 'n' word and he continues he will know he is a rapist. If he just pushes on without asking, then he can just tell himself that she wasnt clear enough and how was he supposed to know.

Lets educate men AND women.

Ok. Can you detail exactly what 'education' we should be giving to women on preventing rape?

And i mean specifically preventing rape, so not just general keeping safe on a night out stuff.

Ffs I'm absolutely sick and tired of being told its my ducking job to stop rapist.

I'm certainly not saying that and I'm sorry you had that appalling experience.

If Korma meant something all the lines- respect your partner, do not pressure them and get active consent, yeah that's gender neutral and good but really focuses on healthy relationships.

Men should be taught not to rape or coerce in particular as they're the main offenders and this will keep other MEN safe from rape as well.