'It might not have been rape, she might have had sex and regretted it afterwards'

[BravoHopeful]

This statement makes no sense. If you had consensual sex and the next day regretted it, why on earth would you go through the whole horrible experience of reporting it to the police and everything that follows? You would just move on and put it behind you.

It's always trotted out as a likely explanation in 'date rape' type cases. But it makes no sense whatsoever. AIBU?

I think we need to bring other crimes into line with rape.

It should be necessary to prove that a murdederer did not have "reasonable" beluef that his victim wanted to be murdered.

Also it needs to be proven that the victims if a burglary didn't behave in such a way as to make the burglar believe that they were opposed to the theft. (Very much opposed, not just presuming it was not OK to steal from them.)

It seems to me that the burdens placed on non-rapist criminals unfairly discriminate against non-sexual criminals.

Let's hold them all to the same standard.

Prosecution rates for reported crime should all be below 6%.

Think of the money we'll save.

We already agree that alliwing dangerous, violent criminals at large is totally fine.

I know this thread is frustrating but actually it's helping me crystallise why the "reasonable belief" defence needs to go.
If that clause wasn't there, then a man could be asked how he knew the victim consented and he could say "because she did x, y and z". Or in some of the more outlandish cases he wouldn't be able to answer at all.

felascloak I would bet very good money that every one of the scenarios I described has happened at some point. I'm sure those women did not anticipate or give proper thought to the process before they went down that road. I would imagine that for most of them the initial accusation was made in anger or haste and then events snowballed out of control.

Do you believe that every single rape accusation ever made was genuine? Every single one? All I'm saying is that a very, very tiny minority of them will have been false and gave a few examples of why that would happen.

Like I said, I don't believe it's common and I don't believe that it should overshadow the conversation about genuine victims and the disgraceful rate of successful convictions we have in this country. Our focus should be on empowering women to report rape in full confidence that they will be believed and in the 99.99% of genuine cases, a conviction will be secured.

I'm still scraping my jaw off the floor over that "I'm talking about the 90+% (hopefully) of men who do not plan on raping but who are nevertheless not au fait with the ins and outs of what the feminist lobby are insisting any decent man would do."

I can't get over the fact that there are women out there who find the idea of men actually asking women whether they want sex before they stick their penis in them to be a wildly crazy idea. And who know so many men who are clearly such complete shits. Most of the men I know are as horrified as I am by the idea that a man might have sex with a woman who looked and behaved as though she wasn't enjoying it, or a man who didn't, in some way, check first (you know, it doesn't need to be a "sign this form in triplicate", it could be a "shall I get a condom?" or a "do you like it when I do this" or a "please fuck my brains out now..." or a "let me make sweet sweet love to you" - delete according to the man's personality and what he reads his would-be-sexual partner's personality to be like - I personally would piss myself laughing if someone said "let me make sweet sweet love to you," but I gather some people like that sort of thing).

It's not like it's rocket science. It's just basic respect for another human being. It's "I'd like to engage in this activity which should be fun for both of us, do you like the sound of it?" I mean, how bizarre is it to live in a world where you might think starting to stick your penis into someone without finding out what they thought about it first was in any way okay, in any way to be written off as a misunderstanding?

Is every man using that defence lying?

No.

The opposite.

Every man using that defence is telling the truth.

That he reasonably believed his right to rape her trumped her right to say no.

And every one of them is right.

Because the way things stand, any man csn reasonably believe that the woman's consent is optional.

See slender you suggest it's not up to women to not be raped but then say But saying 'fuck off to such a person is a much better message than 'It's getting a bit late.'

Why is it so hard to accept the concept of enthusiastic consent? So not 'no means no' but 'yes means yes'. You have clearly never been in a situation where you are intimidated by a man, scared about what he may do if you don't say yes or are so petrified you freeze stock still? This does happen, and if a woman isn't brave enough to say "fuck off" rather than "it's getting late" she isn't deserving of rape, or coercive sex or whatever you want to call it.

Men who rely on the 'heat of the moment' to get laid and have spent the evening trying, like some sort of magician, to get a woman to the point where having sex with them will seem like a splendid idea.

Again maybe I'm misreading your posts but I don't think a man spending countless days resorting to magician style tactics to get a woman into bed is a splendid idea. If a man is trying that hard, and still getting turned down, it's because the woman doesn't want to have sex with him. It's up to a man to accept this, and back off, not a woman to spell it out to him like he's some sort of child

Do you believe that every single rape accusation ever made was genuine? Every single one?

No. we know for a fact false allegations happen. However the number is so tiny compared to the perception and the stats of rape that it's not unreasonable for focus to be getting better convictions for rapists rather than looking at how allegations would be false

But saying 'fuck off to such a person is a much better message than 'It's getting a bit late.'

So it's women's fault for not being assertive enough when faced with a bigger stronger man that she is worried so badly wants to get his end away that whether she wants to or not might not come into it?

It's pretty mysterious if you're thinking about it theoretically from the other side of it delete.

Before having sex with someone, you must make sure she's consenting and in a fit state to consent.
Of course. I'd never want to force myself on...hang on, she has to be sober? Do you mean it's definitely rape if you have sex with someone when they're drunk?
No. But they have to be in a fit state. Like be able to walk around and speak coherently.
Like, be able to walk along a white line? Or just able to walk?
I don't know. Definitely very conscious.
Obviously. But speaking coherently - how would I be sure? You don't go back to a hotel room and sit around discussing kierkegaard.
*No you have to stop what you're doing and ask if she wants to go ahead.^
What if she's the one moving things forward?
I don't know what you're meant to do there.
And what if I ask her and she just says yes or moans or something? That's not a full sentence. Am I supposed to ask her to speak a full sentence so I can assess her fitness to make a decision?
I don't know.
Would you want me to do that?
No. I'd find it patronising.
Am I meant to do this if she's obviously really into it?
I think so but it sounds nuts.
Fuck me. I had no idea.

YY mostly and I don't think anyone is suggesting that the situation should be a man saying "do you consent to intercourse?" But have reasonable belief that sex is being entered into in both cases enthusiastically. Why is it so crazy to be teach boys and men "if she doesn't look like she wants to, doesn't seem to be enjoying it and isn't enthusiastic then don't have sex with her, as she may not want to have sex". To suggest males are such wildly rabid horny wigs is fucking offensive to men. To suggest feminists wanting this kind of culture is an attack of men is fucking offensive to everyone

No I don't believe every rape accusation is genuine. That would clearly be bonkers.
I believe (and am backed up by research) that false allegations of rape are no higher than for other types of crime and therefore the rape law doesn't need specific provisions (the reasonable belief Claude and sec 41) to counter false allegations.

As I said up thread most false allegations have been linked to mental health issues and so not the "regret" scenario.

I think it suits rapists very well to trot out the "regret" story when a case is dropped. Why it is people believe the person who has the biggest incentive to lie I don't know (lengthy prison sentence vs embarassment/judgment)

Pinky that's literally what I said if you read my whole comment.

Like I said, I don't believe it's common and I don't believe that it should overshadow the conversation about genuine victims and the disgraceful rate of successful convictions we have in this country.

But it does

Everytime there is a thread about rape, false accusations come up

Every single bloody time

Even on support threads or what can we do to increase awareness of rape myths

"How do you expect a man, who may not have had many sexual partners and not be that experienced, to pick up the signs she didn't want it? Not all men are sex mad, sexually experienced people."

Some of the views on this thread are so weird. You don't need to have had any sexual partners. We're not talking about a special skill you gradually master as you gain sexual experience; we're talking about the normal ordinary experience of reading other people's body language that we all do constantly every day in all our interactions from childhood.

I told my 'almost' rapist at 16 years of age explicitly that I didn't want sex, I said it more than once, I was also drunk. He ignored me, he would have done it anyway if he wasn't interrupted by someone entering the room. I was lucky that night, many women aren't so.

Telling women that they can stave off a rapist by telling them no or 'fuck off' is a load of shite. Because some rapists don't care and will do it anyway. Some rapists will not like being told no and will become even more violent. Some rapists will pretend they didn't hear you.

It's such a load of bullshit.

felascloak I didn't say any of that did I? I don't believe more people lie about rape than any other crime. I simply answered the question that the OP posed.

Before having sex with someone, you must make sure she's consenting and in a fit state to consent.
Of course. I'd never want to force myself on...hang on, she has to be sober? Do you mean it's definitely rape if you have sex with someone when they're drunk?
It's probably safest to wait until they are sober, if you think they might be too drunk to remember if they wanted sex. You can always take their number and call them the next day.

Fixed that for you.

I didn't struggle and I didn't say no whilst he forced himself inside me repeatedly. He left me physically and mentally injured. He knew I wasn't consenting, but because I wasn't able to override the trauma and do all the things you think you would be able to do in that situation, I'd be the one whose honesty was doubted. It's so so easy to hypothesise about how you would react in one of these situations, I'd have thought I'd scream and knee him in the balls, but I didn't. I lay there and let him. Even at 17 I knew I could never tell anyone because the not being believed would have just tipped me over the edge.

It's a fucked up world isn't it? Where I still replay it daily and I doubt he even remembers the 'slag'.

jacket you answered by trotting out some rape myths that are pretty implausible. I was just trying to illustrate that is all.

I know Jacket I just wanted to be clear that many of us know they do happen and aren't in denial about it!

Thank you to all the women who have shared their experiences here to help articulate why the concept of enthusiastic consent is so important.

I wanted to share this song. If it didn't have so much wonderful swearing I think it ought to be compulsory viewing in schools.

If you're not sure it's not rape: don't do it!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=_DwvXDpDxEY

pinky I like your message of enthusiastic consent. I'm not suggesting men should go around trying to get laid. But nor are such men necessarily rapists - though definitely products of a coercive, sexist culture. The word enthusiastic doesn't magically clear away any complications around consent. For a start, it assumes a very assertive kind of woman having a rather assertive kind of sex - and a very confident, articulate partnership to begin with.

The bottom line for me and many other women is that there should be clear consensus about what exactly is expected of men and it should deal with the particulars - how intoxicated is too intoxicated, on both sides, and how is this judged. Does there have to be a conversation and what must this involve. In a world where cultural pressures are such that many women agree to have unwanted sex regardless of how they feel, the word 'enthusiasm' isn't enough, especially when it can mean different things depending on what 'enthusiastic sex' looks like in your culture.

Women who are assertive and confident will never get into a situation where they are expected to have sex with a man they don't want to have sex with. If a confident, assertive woman finds herself in a situation where she needs to say 'fuck off', she will be speaking to a rapist and it will be useless. So I can see why feminists think it's useless. However, many women and especially younger women are unable to say 'I'm not interested' or 'I don't want to take things further' at the appropriate moment so 'fuck off' is very useful as a last resort.

Rufus yep guaranteed you have two dozen people come one who know someone who was "falsely accused" but on hearing the story they just didn't get convicted, which is not a false allegation. They also didn't have an issue with their name being published prior to charging but rather local gossipers, so there's no reasoning in their story to suggest a change in the law (which is often what they call for). I do wonder if these people have some sort of "MN rape thread radar"

Women who are assertive and confident will never get into a situation where they are expected to have sex with a man they don't want to have sex with unless he is a rapist, obviously.

slender

Mumsnet hates it when people say "my dh says..."

Fucks them right off

But even my dh thinks that its very obvious when someone is drunk and not able to consent....he doesnt find it mysterious at all

He also thinks that a lot of men go out with the express purpose of having sex and "taking advantage" was the phrase he used