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Original poster

Drunk consent is still consent is a load of rubbish. ( Ched Even acquitted)

331 replies

EveOnline2016 · 14/10/2016 15:58

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ched-evans-rape-trial-defence-12017591

I am fuming at this, how many women now will not come forward because of this ruling.

Sorry if this has been done already.

OP posts:
FullTimeYummy · 18/10/2016 22:48

Nice logic there birds

user1476826468 · 18/10/2016 23:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HillaryFTW · 18/10/2016 23:07

Troll off, user, the grown ups are talking.

KindDogsTail · 18/10/2016 23:23

"In CCTV footage shown to the court she was seen leaving the bar and then falling over, squatting and talking to several men in The Godfather takeaway shop." (Mirror)

Obviously drunk.

venusinscorpio · 18/10/2016 23:40

The point is that it is fine for you to make the choice to minimise risk according to your own perception of it. It is not fair to criticise a rape victim's behaviour or say either directly or indirectly that they bear any responsibility for being attacked by a criminal.

FullTimeYummy · 18/10/2016 23:47

What if somebody has no idea how to minimise the risk or has a warped perception of the risk severity?

Are we to just leave them to it?

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 00:25

Most women seek to minimise risk in some way. You can't live without taking some risks. Its not your place to pronounce on how you think other adult women should curtail their activities. It's not always as simple as you're implying.

Matchingbluesocks · 19/10/2016 06:07

Well that's America. We have no way of knowing whether RAINN or whatever might actually be a charity run by misogynistics with out dated controversial ideas, do we?

FullTimeYummy · 19/10/2016 06:18

Venus, I agree with your post entirely.

BeMorePanda · 19/10/2016 06:50

I think the alcohol is a red herring.

How do you obtain consent from someone you never spoke to?

You don't! He didn't.

McDonald may have acted like Cheds pimp, but pimps can't give consent obo prostituted women.

If she was really drunk and engaged in consensual sex with CM, I think it's very likely she thought she was still shagging him. Especially if she couldn't see him. In reality she had no idea.

CE is a despicable person and a rapist.

BeMorePanda · 19/10/2016 06:56

You are at greatest risk of being raped by someone you know.

So should women be avoiding spending any time alone with men they know? And if they are foolish enough to ignore statistical realities, and spend time alone with men they know, well what then? They should have known better shouldn't they?

FullTimeYummy · 19/10/2016 07:27

Let's not muddy the waters by talking about entirety different situations.

In this case, the woman was/wasn't raped by a stranger in an obviously high risk situation.

Sure most women try to minimise risk, but this woman on this occasion did not.

DadWasHere · 19/10/2016 08:08

Some people get drunk for fuel/permission to do all manner of things they would not do sober. For men that means, commonly, violence. For women... well... I developed spider senses for women who preferred their sexual consent poured from a bottle, and I learned its a very good idea to avoid them.

Boundaries · 19/10/2016 08:12

Although mummy she was raped when she was having sex with a different person.

Don't suppose she expected him to invite his mate round to have a go.

I think the point about protecting yourself by not getting wasted etc is a really difficult one. Of course women can (and do, often) take precautions against sexual violence. But the implication should not be that it is in any way their fault it happens, even if they have not been "careful".

So phrases like "i have never got so wasted as to let a random man grope me" or "she shouldn't have put herself in a risky situation" are not ok. The implication is that it was up to the woman to stop it happening.

The choice of language is important.

FullTimeYummy · 19/10/2016 09:49

Boundaries, we'll have to agree to disagree on the raped/not raped bit as I simply don't think it's possible to say for certain one way or the other.

I agree with you RE choice of language.

Matchingbluesocks · 19/10/2016 10:13

You can consent by your body language though and that's not victim blaming.

Saying he needed to speak to her first to believe he had constant isn't correct (in the eyes of the law) you can reasonably believe you have consent by the behaviour displayed, which unfortunately is what this case has hinged on

Although a clearer example would be- if there was no speaking but she undressed him, performed a sex act on him, guided his penis in etc,... Then the man can be confident of consent.

It would however, be more usual to actually speak to someone.

BeMorePanda · 19/10/2016 10:28

Yes you can consent with body language with someone you have some kind of relationship with.

But when you are very drunk, and have never even spoken a word to someone who is a total stranger - well that is a stretch.

The court is clearly saying that you can obtain consent this way. I think they are dangerously wrong.

PersianCatLady · 19/10/2016 11:40

We have no way of knowing whether RAINN or whatever might actually be a charity run by misogynistics with out dated controversial ideas, do we?
It is a charity that has helped 2.3 million people since 1994 and just because you haven't bothered to find out more about them you think that it is OK to label the whole organisation as misogynistic.

PinkissimoAndPearls · 19/10/2016 12:37

The victim blaming by women is particularly depressing.

"Can people really not see that rape is not the victim's fault but still take basic precautions to avoid it happening to you?"

^That right there is an oxymoron. Women can't^ "take basic precautions to avoid it happening". Unless they never ever come into contact with any men.

The problem with idea of women having a responsibility to prevent rape, as well as being incorrect, is the idea that women then actually bear some responsibility for being raped if they haven't taken precautions. In these cases, they are partly to blame, by your reasoning. It is exactly victim blaming.

You can only sit there and type bullshit like that if you haven't any idea what it actually means. I had been drinking alcohol. At about a foot shorter and four stone lighter than him there was absolutely nothing I could have done to prevent it, he would have done it whether I was drunk or sober. Rape isn't about sex, all this "well men will find it easier to have sex with you if you're drunk" stuff is bollocks. They don't have sex with us because we are drunk, they rape us and the two ideas need to be separated. Rape is not sex, it's power and control and it's violence. Men attack us and assault us whether we are drunk or sober and it's not our fault. You need to start realising rape is closer to murder or GBH than it is to sex.

People like you Persian and others agreeing, are exactly why I didn't report, because I knew people would hold me partly responsible with your "logic". And I believed that too at the time, it's taken me over 20 years to believe it wasn't my fault - because of people like you. Now I know he didn't have sex with me because I was pissed, he raped me because he wanted to and he could. It's completely different.

It's so easy to sit there and smugly and arrogantly type that women should take basic precautions and take responsibility for their own safety, I sincerely doubt that you would say it to my face if I described to you exactly what he did to me. If you knew how he hit me and held me down and nearly suffocated me, and left bruises in the shape of fingerprints on my arms, would you still say to my face if I hadn't got drunk it wouldn't have happened?

So come on, you're quick enough to make these pronouncements like "take basic precautions" - think about it and tell me the truth, do you honestly believe I could have prevented it happening by "taking precautions" and "keeping myself safe"? Because if you do think this, you are saying I am partly responsible for what happened, as I could have avoided it but didn't.

Please think about what I have said and answer the question, do you believe I could have prevented what happened to me by taking precautions?

PinkissimoAndPearls · 19/10/2016 12:38

I fucked up the formatting there, sorry

AristotlesTrousers · 19/10/2016 12:44

Well said, Pinkissimo. I think you're spot on, and I feel the same way about what happened to me. Flowers

maggiethemagpie · 19/10/2016 12:46

Massive difference between causal responsibility and moral responsibility here.

That's what full time mummy is getting at, I think.

But these arguments always descend into farce because people on here don't seem to able to get the difference between casual responsiblity (if i hadn't done x, y may not have happened) and moral responsiblity (it was my fault/ I am to blame) and then you get the victim blaming accusations.

Maybe we need a different word for this concept.

PinkissimoAndPearls · 19/10/2016 12:54

The only concept we need Maggie is that only men who rape bear the responsibility for it, however you feel the need to label this responsibility.

I'm totally done here, you can't fucking argue with patronising arrogant people who are fortunate enough not to understand what we are trying to explain. It's really sad that we even have to explain this. Fuck it. Fuck it.

Flowers to you too Aristotle and anyone else who understands.

FullTimeYummy · 19/10/2016 12:56

Maggie, thanks you've said what I was trying to say, but much better, thank you

maggiethemagpie · 19/10/2016 13:08

Like trying to tell people in medieval times that the earth is not flat, isn't it Yummy!

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