Drunk consent is still consent is a load of rubbish. ( Ched Even acquitted)

[EveOnline2016]

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ched-evans-rape-trial-defence-12017591

I am fuming at this, how many women now will not come forward because of this ruling.

Sorry if this has been done already.

Maybe we need a word for the concept of 'not being able to understand something, no matter how many times it is explained', Pinkissimo.

Oh wait! We already have several....

I've given up too Pink.

It's a sad state of affairs but there are lots of women who are very happy to absolve men from the responsibility of not committing rape, and place that responsibility on women to avoid being raped.

I don't care how you word it or what labels you put on it to try and excuse them, men are responsible for rape. 100% of the time, every time. Attitudes like this are how they get away with it so often and have done for so long, and why it is so woefully under reported. There's a thread on here, 100s & 100s & 100s of posts long, filled with women recounting their experience of rape and sexual assault, me included. I wonder what we could have done, in the interests of personal safety and responsibility of course, to prevent what happened to us.

No Persian, I dont need to research the unknown charities on the other side of the world that YOU have brought into a discussion as some kind of evidence that women can protect themselves from rape by being careful. You need to explain why they're relevant, right and experts if you're going to introduce them to the discussion

Just to pick up on something here. If women can in some way protect themselves against rape, then answer this.

Why are women raped in Muslim countries where women don't drink alcohol, sex before marriage is not allowed and women cover up in the company of men.

How is it that rape still happens

Because of bad men, Lighthouse

Also, who gets to decide what these basic safety precautions are? You? The government?

What would they be? Don't go back with strangers, don't get too drunk, maybe don't drink at all. Don't walk alone at night, don't walk alone during the day, don't be alone with strange men, any men?

Given that most rapes are by men you know, just how do we protect ourselves.

The individual decides Lighthouse - this is already what happens.

People decide what precautions to take and whether they are worth taking and yes, they may still get raped, that's life.

I'd love to live in this magical world where just because you shouldn't have to protect yourself, means you don't and nothing bad ever happens.

Unfortunately the real world isn't like that.

Of course the blame is always with the rapist, and women shouldn't have to lock themselves away but I can't stop bad people doing bad things and neither can anyone else. I may choose, and it is a personal choice, to take action to make it less likely to happen. Still may happen but it's my choice if I want to try and make it less likely, and please don't tell me it isn't.

The thing is women and girls DO modify their behaviour from as soon as they learn to walk and talk girls are taught to "be careful", to watch out, don't go out alone etc.

We are constantly told by many many different sources to be aware of where we walk, we watch our drinks, who we talk to, where we sit on a bus at night, we carry keys when we walk alone at night, we are aware of the dangers of rape, we get sold rape proof pants, and rape whistles, and mace/pepper spray etc. We inundated with "be careful" messages all of our lives. And still we are raped.

And if its not one women who is raped it will be her neighbour. Because rapists are out there. Their behaviour is both condemned and supported in our society. They are rarely arrested, let alone convicted and rape culture slaps them on the back and props them up, while selling women stuff to "protect" themselves with, and blaming women who don't follow all the "rules".

Women who live in countries where alcohol is prohibited get raped. Women who cover themselves with clothing from head to foot get raped. Women who largely confirm themselves to the home get raped.

Women who go out at night and get obliterated on alcohol get raped. Women who don't drink get raped.

So yeah victim blaming totally sucks. And it doesn't work. It's really fucking stupid.

I wish I could 'like' your post Panda.

So just because you shouldn't have to protect yourself/take safety precautions etc, do you still do that?

Or do you live your life as though the risk just isn't there, so not modifying your actions /behaviours in any way ?

Genuine question!

I think the truth is that a lot of men will take advantage of vulnerable women and girls. They will sexually abuse old people in care homes, they will sexually abuse people with mental or physical infirmities, they will sexually abuse small children. They will sexually abuse teenage girls in foster care (see the Rochdale case, among others). And they will sexually abuse women who are drunk to the point of unconsciousness.

Being that drunk makes you vulnerable. It doesn't mean that there's something morally wrong with being drunk, or that it's your fault if you're raped while drunk. It doesn't mean that sober women never get raped - clearly they do. It's just that being very drunk creates an extra vulnerability. That's why I always advise my daughter not to get too drunk and to keep her wits about her to avoid someone slipping Rohypnol or something into her drink. It's not about blame. It's about doing one small thing to protect yourself.

It's as those trumpeting victim blaming don't live in the real world.... In the real world there are threats from potential rapists..... Suggesting that someone might consider reducing that threat by modifying their actions isn't victim blaming, it's common sense!

Its a sad fact that a woman who drinks to the point of losing control of her actions increases her risk of being raped. It shouldn't be the case, and we must legislate, educate and campaign to stop this, but that's the reality of the world we live in and no amount of saying 'it shouldn't be so' changes the current reality. To advise women to behave in a way that reflects this reality, whilst seeking to change that reality, is sensible,' reasonable behaviour.

Right, so what about women and girls who were stone cold sober. What 'common sense' should they have adhered to in order to prevent a man from raping them?

The common theme in rape is men. Not the actions of women.

I know not exactly the same thing, but when i was 18 I went out in town, and was quite pissed and drunkenly wandered over to a car where I was beckoned by someone who then ripped my purse out of my hand whilst the other one drove off.

I knew it was their fault, but I also kicked myself for being so stupid.

Should I have?

I think I should, because in future I was a lot more careful and have never been mugged since. It made me learn from the experience in a way that if I hadn't 'kicked' myself I may not have done.

Can't always stop it happening Thyme, what part of that are you struggling to understand?

Of course the blame is always with the rapist, and women shouldn't have to lock themselves away but I can't stop bad people doing bad things and neither can anyone else. I may choose, and it is a personal choice, to take action to make it less likely to happen. Still may happen but it's my choice if I want to try and make it less likely, and please don't tell me it isn't.
Totally agree.

I feel desperately sorry for the ladies on here who have been raped or sexually assaulted themselves and nobody said that you could have prevented being raped.

Why does everything have to be all or nothing?

Obviously in cases like Pink's there was nothing she could have done but that doesn't mean that it is not a good idea to advise women of just how vulnerable they can become when they are absolutely wasted.

I don't actually have daughters but if I did I certainly wouldn't say to them go out and get paralytic and it doesn't matter because if you are attacked it was the man's fault.

Everyone knows that it is always the man's fault already.

What I would do is advise them of how they can take simple steps to reduce not prevent the likelihood of them being attacked.

I am sorry if you find this offensive but I think that telling women they can do whatever they want and everything will be fine just isn't true.

Thyme

No one is saying that stone cold sober people aren't ever raped, rather than you're more vulnerable to being raped if you are paralytic!

It's a matter of choice to take action to reduce your vulnerability to rape... You may not want to take any such action and that's fine. However, I would much rather my daughter chose to make herself less vulnerable to rape by not getting blind drunk than for her to choose to exercise her right to get blind drunk (which is frankly overrated!) in a public place.

I'm not struggling to understand anything thanks.

A vagina isn't the same as a purse. Nor is it the same as a house, or an unlocked car, or a laptop or a 'phone or any other of those ridiculous analogies. Please don't compare rape to the theft of property.

What if you tell your daughter that, and she ignores you. No one takes their parents' advice all the time. I assume if she was raped after a few drinks you'd tell her that it wasn't her fault? You wouldn't say I told you so, would you?

Are you more likely to be raped if you're drunk banana?

Can you link to the stats on that?

Of course a vagina is different to a purse or a car... Much more important in fact. So if we choose to take basic precautions over those material things, how much more important to take precautions over actions which increase our chances of being raped!

Thyme, please don't tell me what i can and can't compare rape to.

Of course a vagina is not the same as a purse but if I want to make an analogy between rape and mugging for the purpose of illustrating a point I am making, I'll do so.

You don't have to agree with my point but it's not up to you to say how I can or can't make it.

To those saying women shouldn't take any responsibility...

Do you live your life as though risk doesn't exist, just because you 'shouldn't have to' take precautions?

And if so is this just in the case of rape/sexual assault, or other risky criminal situations such as theft/fraud?

The best way to avoid rape is to avoid men all together. Forever.

You are statistically more likely to be raped by a person you know, not set upon on your way home from the pub. Young men are the group who are most at risk of being attacked in the street, not women. Those are both facts. Perpetuating the myth that women need to "keep themselves safe" by not wearing heels, not walking in the dark, not being drunk, all make it easier for the men who do rape to get away with it, because "well what did she expect walking home in that state at half 1 in the morning". That's why it doesn't help to keep making women responsible for not being raped.

Thyme, what about all those women who didn't go out and do all those things and then who DIDN'T get raped... because they weren't there to BE raped?

We don't hear about those cases do we, because they DIDN'T HAPPEN.

So how can you possibly say that taking safety precautions doesn't help?