To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

merrymouse

I don't disagree with 99% of your analysis of the politics, or the lies told (but you have restricted your summary of lies to only one side of the argument).

I agree this was all about trying to buy off the UKIP threat, just as the 1975 one was for Harold Wilson to get a mandate to tell Tony Benn and the Eurosceptics to shut up. Anyone with a little background history and knowledge could see that. The problem with giving people a choice is they may choose the option you didn't want or expect.

FWIW I think (and for the avoidance of doubt this is pure speculation) Cameron expected to get more concessions from the EU - I think he really imagined that he could get the "emergency brake" he spoke about on EU immigration - but he misjudged the rest of the EU.

I think Cameron massively misjudged how the referendum would go and the EU. The EU has already given the UK lots of concessions, and gave some more, but wouldn't let it back out of the immgration debate, mainly because the reasons for wanting lower immigration are based on very little supporting data and more on the prejudices of a group of people.

I don't think you can say that the remain side lied, only one side was criticised by the UK statistics authority.

Osborne's punishment budget may still prove to come through, and the £4,300 a year worse off is near enough to happening with the fall in the £. As is the fact that we won't get full access to the EU without freedom of movement.

Osborne's punishment budget may still prove to come through

Indeed but it didn't happen straight away as he claimed. A lot of stuff "might" still happen.

Turkey might join the EU if it still exists at some point in the future. Cameron gave a speech in which he expressed frustration that it was taking Turkey so long to be offered membership (when he was trying to curry favour there). Not much that any politicians say can be take at face value.

There could be instability and a Third World war as a result of Brexit - that's not a fact or a lie either.

*and the £4,300 a year worse off is near enough to happening with the fall in the .

Please explain, with working out?

Average household income is 25, 700, £ has fallen as an average 13% since the leave vote. Therefore the UK average income has fallen around £3341 in comparison in terms of PPP since the vote.

Osborne's budget didn't happen straight away because we didn't decare article 50 straight away.

We'll see what Hammond does in November. Turkey won't be joining the EU in the near future as was the threat from the leave side, there will be no EU army, despite the attempts of others here to manufacture claims about this. There is no £350 million for the NHS and it seems that democracy and sovereignty have taken a running jump too.

Funny that

but you have restricted your summary of lies to only one side of the argument

'Project fear' has been criticized for telling lies but they didn't so much lie as make unverifiable predictions.

The leave campaign (albeit sometimes mainly the UKIP part of the campaign) said things that were completely wrong. Whatever the intentions of some leavers, Farage was very much part of the campaign and Farage has never been bothered about the truth.

Nobody knows how the economy will react to Brexit, but the UK can/could veto Turkey's entry to the EU.

(Although re: economic predictions, as somebody mentioned upthread, holidaying in Europe is looking quite expensive at the moment).

OK, excuses for why remain's lies didn't happen - but spending our contributions on the NHS instead couldn't happen until we stopped paying into the EU - so the same applies.

There was a lot of exaggeration on all sides. If you seriously think everyone who voted leave expected £350 million to appear in the NHS overnight I think you're taking a very dim view of your fellow voters - agreed it was a narrow result, but that means there are lots of us on each side.

Trying to say only one side told lies isn't very realistic. Implying only one side believes lies is patronising if you really believe it.

"I am here to make the case for Turkey’s membership of the European Union and to fight for it. I will remain your strongest possible advocate for EU membership and for greater influence at the top table of European diplomacy.

“This is something I feel very strongly and very passionately about. Together I want us to pave the road from Ankara to Brussels"

David Cameron, PM 2010

"this is a load of bollocks, we're not letting Turkey in"

David Cameron, PM 2016

Which one of those was the truth?

Turkey might join the EU if it still exists at some point in the future. Cameron gave a speech in which he expressed frustration that it was taking Turkey so long to be offered membership (when he was trying to curry favour there). Not much that any politicians say can be take at face value.

And Theresa May could do an about turn and not go ahead with Brexit and start a campaign to allow Turkey to enter the EU, with the U.K. guaranteeing their economy.

On the economic predictions, isn't Nissan asking for government compensation for possible costs, whilst also delaying investment another one that has come true.

As is lower business optimism causing investment to stall.

All of the predictions were also made on what would happen once we left, and we haven't yet. The turmoil predicted between leaving and the referendum has certainly happened, look at all the economic data showing big falls, with corresponding rises after it seemed art 50 wasn't getting declared straight away.

Also, the have our cake and eat it deal doesn't seem to be forthcoming from the EU does it?

Why cant both of them be the truth

Average household income is 25, 700, £ has fallen as an average 13% since the leave vote. Therefore the UK average income has fallen around £3341 in comparison in terms of PPP since the vote.

If I had to do all my shopping in foreign currencies, which I don't. Your sums don't work.

Sorry that was for wasonthelist

Oh my giddy aunt

The turkey post

but spending our contributions on the NHS instead couldn't happen until we stopped paying into the EU

Because we never contributed £350 million to the EU. The figure was just plain wrong.

Ah but purchasing power parity is how we judge the level of income in a country. Currently the UK average income just fell by £3341 so technically Osborne's statement wasn't a "lie" in fact its far more accurate than the £350 million figute.

Just because you haven't yet felt the cost of this doesn't mean it hasn't happened, or that you won't, oh say around Christmas time when it translates into everything that is imported (especially oil/petrol/energy costs).

The sums work :)

Both Cameron's statements were true because Turkey's entry to the EU was always attached to them meeting loads of conditions.

On the economic predictions, isn't Nissan asking for government compensation for possible costs, whilst also delaying investment another one that has come true.

Car manufacturers will always try to gain advantage - I have a newspaper article from the 1990s saying Toyota would definitely not invest another penny in the Uk until we joined the single currency.

I am not denying that investment may be put on hold - that was always likely. If we can't persuade these multinationals there is viable business to be done here, they will go elsewhere, like the Ford Transit factory which was relocated from Southampton to Turkey with the help of an £80 million EU loan. We have to work out the value of keeping the ones we want and attracting others. Staying in the EU wasn't a guarantee of continued overseas investment.

"the Ford Transit factory which was relocated from Southampton to Turkey with the help of an £80 million EU loan"

Now see this is incorrect. The Ford transit factory in Turkey already produced far many more Transits than the one in Southampton which was being scaled down, the £80m loan was made to Ford Europe as part of a restructuring deal by the EU bank and approved of by GO. Ford had large over capacity in production of Transits so part of that restructuring was to close the smaller and less productive plant and move all production to Turkey where the factory employs 7,500 workers. This was part of restructuring of all of Ford's business after the credit crunch

Staying in the EU would pretty much have guaranteed that the next Qashqai would have been built in Sunderland.

Just because you haven't yet felt the cost of this doesn't mean it hasn't happened, or that you won't, oh say around Christmas time when it translates into everything that is imported (especially oil/petrol/energy costs)

I didn't suggest that - but your sums are ridiculous - we don't import everything we consume. To try to claim that such a huge drop in income has already happened is fantasy, pure and simple - and how the hell do you presume to know what I have or have not noticed.

You are using fantasy calculations to reinforce what was in any case a forecast of the lack of growth. If your figures were sensible (which they aren't) it would mean things were far far far worse than Osborne's predictions which were over a longer timescale in any case.

All this illustrates is that no-one knows, although remainers do seem extremely keen to seek out the slightest hint of anything that looks bad so they can gleefully say " I told you so". There was someone on an earlier thread saying that the benefit cap was terrible, but would only get much much much worse because of brexit.

How did the £80 million not help Ford move Transit production to Turkey again?

We have to work out the value of keeping the ones we want and attracting others.

Except 'we' don't decide anything. Those decisions will be made by industry and through negotiation with government. Having lost the competitive advantage of being in the EU, the government may have to offer something else - cheaper workers? Less regulation? Lower taxes?

Germany have always opposed Turkey joining

and until opinion changes it really won't matter if they meet conditions. Turkey and Germany have a complex political relationship that have been heightened by the refugee crises

My figures are just fine, comparing UK household income with other currencies shows a PPP fall of over £3000 since the vote. That means our spending power HAS fallen, so is there or is there not some truth to the fact that we are worse off?

I would presume to know that you haven't felt it in your pocket yet because all of the data suggests that the prices being paid by suppliers have not yet been passed on to consumers in the vast majority of cases.

Oh my giddy aunt

The turkey post smile

OK, it''s hit that level, has it?

Enough then, you all have you cosy moan-in "we're all superior and we'll love telling you so much about how wrong you were".

I thought we were having a debate, but when the "giddy aunt" stuff starts - forget it, I'm done if that's the best you can do.

Keep talking to yourselves, keep saying the mantras "leavers are all thick uneducated people susceptible to lies and deceit, not real people at all".

Have fun.