To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

We can't appease people by carrying out massive human rights violations.

And I don't believe that there are a lot of people who want any such thing.

Bear - we won't escape all the fall out if that happens sadly but I think the impact will be less.

I understand your vote to remain as you see no gain to leaving. In the nicest possible way i hope you are wrong.

bear It is patronising because you assume I don't know and have to point out my "mistake". I can bring up any issue I like regarding the feelings of a Leaver, which I thought you were interested in, and possible developments in the U.K. , I don't need your permission.

I hope you are right boffered

Bear I see what you are saying but I think that is a pretty minority view and not one which I have ever heard the government embrace and it is something I think most leave (and remain and non)-voters would be horrified at.

Stop being so defensive davros

I asked you why you bought up HS2- it wasn't a goady question it was genuine. I can't see why it was relevant but I'm interested to know why you see it being relevant.

Erm you didn't ask me why I brought up HS2

The other thing that doesn't make much sense to me wrt to immigration wrong is, if we're not going to deport any EU nationals, why we are going for a hard Brexit with potential loss of access to the single market.

That seems a massive price to pay for very little return to me.

you didn't ask me why I brought up HS2

davros In my post at 20.47 I asked If you know leaving the EU doesn't have an impact on whether HS2 goes ahead, what was the relevance of it?

Is the concern about immigration not about people arriving in the future rather than those already here?

Possibly almond but, back to my spectrum, there's a proportion who aren't happy with the numbers here now.

Also, what will happen between now negotiations ending which will be well after March 2019?

It's not inconceivable that we could end up with 20 years worth (complete guessed figure to illustrate the point) of immigrants in that time

I imagine because many people do not want the right of free movement of EU nationals to the UK to continue in the future Bear

Cross post

bear so you did. i believe in giving more support to the UK outside of London and HS2 falls into that category, just an example of domestic issues that shape our future aside from the EU

Then either they stay unhappy or we find a way of alleviating the issues through funding services, infrastructure or cultural provision.

But it is completely impossible for us to deport people.

I see what you mean davros but don't understand the link between HS2, or any other domestic issues that haven't previously been addressed, and voting Leave.

The government could have abolished HS2 ages ago, it hasn't and I don't believe it will. It could have addressed any number of other domestic issues but it hasn't, so if this is a sovereignity thing, i can't see why it's going to change, particularly given the administrative burden of carrying out Brexit is going to tie people up for years so there'll be less time, not more, for what will be less pressing issues.

Bear - Immigration as far as I'm concerned is a major reason for voting leave. But I certainly don't want anyone deported. Well not unless they do something criminal and or are an illegal immigrant. The point of stopping free movement from the EU is that the numbers will naturally go down anyway as some people decide to return to their country of origin. But I am more concerned that everyone, no matter where they come from in the world have exactly the same rights to come here as everyone else and not as it is at the moment where people from the EU can come here willy nilly.

corcory, as negiotiations can't even formally commence until March 2019 (assuming TM invokes a50 in March 2017) and goodness knows how long it will be before anything is finalised, nothing will actually change to improve controls between now and then, in fact it's very likely that immigration will increase as more people will move to avoid the restrictions if that's their intention.

If this is the case, and if the price we then pay is loss of access to the single market, what makes you think it's worth it?

It's likely that losing access to the single market will in itself curb EU migration as people are much less likely to want to come here and that cause more problems than it solves.

Almondpudding: I genuinely don't understand your support of Leave on the basis of your (understandable) concern of TTIP.

One of the (many) reasons I voted Remain was because I too have concerns about TTIP. However, given the fact that Cameron (and his successors ) have said that they support TTIP, whereas both France and Germany (and other EU countries - but you only need one) have said that they no longer support it, we are more at risk of our government signing a similar deal direct with the States (that is, if they let us jump the queue by now means a given ) than if we stay in the EU.

With Brexit, we may end up with "TTIP on steroids" as described here (and in many other articles before and since the referendum) https://www.crunch.co.uk/blog/news/2016/07/26/will-brexit-summon-ttip-steroids-deal/

I would like to see the UK setting it's own trade policy in the way of Norway and Iceland.

So, you would like and EEA type agreement? Fine, I suspect that it's an option that a good many would go along with, if given the choice. That option wasn't on the voting paper.

Theresa May doesn't agree with you , she thinks that we all want to curb immigration at all costs (which she failed to do as Home Secretary), so we can't have an EEA agreement because that includes Free Movement of Labour. Or in reality, saving the Tory party by courting UKIP is her number 1 priority.

PrettyBird, Merkel has just issued another statement this week supporting TTIP, as has the German Finance Minister.

Many EU countries have serious issues with TTIP, but that doesn't mean it will go to their executive bodies for them to make that decision.

It is being decided by the EU.

From Fortune, three days ago!

'German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the European Union and the United States should continue to negotiate the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) free trade deal as long as possible, despite opposition in many European countries.'

To move on from the referendum result is like asking a homeless family to just get on with it. It's All enveloping and serious. My 2cents.

Their dream has become our collective nightmare.
Murdoch won. We lose.