To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

I feel a sense of British heritage (to those from Britain and those from elsewhere who live in Britain) because I have a strong interest and respect for the history, culture and contribution of those who I share a democracy with and who have made the country I live in what it is.

OP, you say you want your country back, what does that mean to you? What do you think that means?

The country I want back:
Was a team player in the EU, not one that felt it was above all that and could go it alone.
Had a booming economy.
Welcomed immigrant workers and did not leave them feeling fearful, unwelcome and guilty of taking "British jobs".
Was united - without divisions with Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Was united - without divisions between Leavers and Remainers
Worked with other countries in leading science and medical research.
Had universities that attracted the brightest and best from all over the world.
Allowed my Archibald to go to ballet school in Paris ;) ( see up thread).
Allowed me to go to ballet school in Paris should I so wish.
Let me have cheap flights to Europe.
Had some of the poorest areas boosted massively by EU funding.
Did not have a xenophobic unelected PM who ignores the views of at least half the population.
Will that do?

We see that impulse even in this thread where posters, no longer feeling kinship with their fellow voters or sense of their heritage, assert that they are going to up sticks and move somewhere else.

What would you suggest is the correct alternative? Remember, our PM (cheered on enthusiastically by much of the populace) has made is crystal clear that there is "us" and "them" . And "they" had better realise that they should STFU or (see at least one suggestion upthread and many other posts previous) leave the country. But you're now saying that if "they" do leave, they're also in the wrong - traitors to their country and heritage.

Am I wrong to conclude that what "they" are expected to do is silently offer their bodies and souls to the great nationalistic project, with a Stepford smile and silent acceptance?

The sentence I quoted also refers specifically to those who have "kinship" and "heritage" so I guess it is OK for those not genetically connected to clear off - perhaps no matter what these others do, they will never be British enough .

And there are people I care about who live in other countries who I talk to all the time, and I care about them more than a random person from Cumbria or Cornwall that I have never met.

But I still understand that I have a responsibility towards the populations of Cumbria and Cornwall, to their health, the education of their children, their employment prospects, that I do not have to people in New York, who have their own democracy.

OP, yes, I think some of those things are very valid points. But some are about divisions that already existed and you were just unaware of.

YANBU, it's a total disaster for Britain.

This would include some of the following words: sovereignty, democracy, immigration, laws, trade

Yes scatteroflight but they are just words; in insolation they don't tell anyone anything.

I'm asking what you actually meant.

Pick any of them - what did you want from that area and, most importantly how can it be achieved given the incompatibility issues between each of those areas.

I voted remain, am horrified - horrified - by the outcome and the outlook for this country.

Scatter upthread posted a link to a radio 4 piece which they said gave them comfort that leave voters are not " immoral, bad, stupid, short-sighted, and/or racist."

It might be worth playing a bit of EU ref buzzword bingo on it [sorry Scatter]:
Sovereignty
Remainers think leavers are too stupid to vote
elites
"the experts "
unaccountable bureaucrats
urban elites
elites

Also, it includes this belting example of dog whistle racism: "our country's stability depends on social trust...social trust comes from shared language, shared customs" etc. When I last checked I don't speak Welsh or Gaelic, nor practice Christianity or Morris dance, but feel felt very much a Briton.

Anyway, this is what really frightens me - the use of terminology which has a strong emotional impact, and implies a chance for the real people, the good, honest people to [per Michael Rosen] "clear out the venal and the corrupt". This language includes no practical realities though - no difficult choice between GDP and membership of the single market, no hard fudge to be found between ensuring businesses are encouraged to set up here and allowing them access to the workers they may want.

Anyway, I find the EU Ref threads comforting, and useful, and interesting, so I'd say they are worth a look. I have also now joined the Liberal Democrats as I have to do something, although am not able yet to report what that might be...

whoops sorry essay strong feelings

Bear behind, here is a summary on one of the major threats to our sovereignty:

stop-ttip.org/what-is-the-problem-ttip-ceta/

The reason why I did not vote was because there was no proper debate about issues like this and there still is no definite answer to what the EU or UK will do about TTIP and CETA.

I know many remainers and leavers, including within my own family, and this is the kind of debate we were having around sovereignty.

YY Night this rhetoric is (I believe deliberately) designed to make Britons of immigrant descent feel vaguely uncomfortable, as though they're permanently on probation, because they haven't got that all-important something that comes from "shared heritage" - as though they have to work harder to prove themselves.

almond, how do you feel about CETA being the model for the trade agreement the UK could try and sign with the EU? DDavis is a fan...

Tentacle, surely your post is dog whistle racism? Why are you stereotyping the culture of Britain as Christianity and Morris Dancing?

Would you do that if we were discussing another country?

Tentacle, I'm generally concerned that the government has no realistic plans around trade agreements, and that they will give up our sovereignty anyway.

But I still understand that I have a responsibility towards the populations of Cumbria and Cornwall, to their health, the education of their children, their employment prospects, that I do not have to people in New York, who have their own democracy.

I'm not talking about people in New York. I'm talking about people living in the UK who bring with them a different heritage and different cultural background.

Indeed. I grew up with nationalism as the local political outlook - bad nationalism - the kind that burns" incomer's" houses down or spits at them when they go to the local pub, but also makes the 'local people' feel comforted and gives a sense of togetherness and shared life. And of course, my people weren't racist - it's just that they had a traditional way of things, and these incomers didn't, couldn't ever be part of that.

It's FUCKING AWFUL and hateful and there are absolutely no positives beyond I left and ran screaming to a place more accepting and I have no idea how to stop it happening.

TheElementsSong -

There is not one thing that any politician could do or say, nor any vote, nor any election, that would make me want to leave my country. This is my home. My heritage. My feelings towards it are unassailable by any outside influence. They come from within me. They are not forced upon me.

It is a shame that you, and I realise many others, do not share this feeling. We see time and again after an election, or now with Brexit, people exclaiming that they are moving to Canada or Ireland or wherever. I don't know why people feel so loosely tied to their homeland. It baffles. And worse of all you don't seem to be at ease with your rootlessness. You don't embrace it and celebrate it. You pretend that instead other people are pushing you out. It's a truly sad thing to witness.

You ask what I would suggest you do, but I can't give you a feeling that you don't possess or advice on how to obtain it. The answer is within yourself to resolve that. Or, as I said, revel in your rootlessness and find comfort there.

almond - I think I was selecting cultural activities which have no part in my life, are popular with my countrymen and do not borrow from foreign influences and I am afraid there were no others I could think of. Baking competitions maybe? Putting pickle on cheese sandwiches?

Yes, Merrymouse, and I mentioned that in my previous response to you.

Why would you not require them to borrow from foreign influences? The cultures of all countries do so.

Culture clearly matters to people. When the why would anybody want to live in London threads come up on here, Londoners point out all the music events, museums, festivals, libraries, architecture, plays, political events, interesting places to visit.

That's all part of culture and shared history. It is very important to people, and in fact cultural spending per head in London is thirteen times what it is in the rest of the country.

revel in your rootlessness and find comfort there.

Thanks very much for your kind sentiments and pity. It's pretty clear that I'm morally inferior, with my lack of indelible nationalistic pride in my genetic heritage. I shall work hard to improve myself in service of my noble role models, as I am sure will all who have read these inspiring words.

I should perhaps explain, at this point, that I am an immigrant. I have made my life here, worked (I wouldn't say hard, just normally ), made whatever contributions I have made. So I am one of those people who would be doubly morally dubious to you: (1) as you say, bafflingly unallied to my genetic roots having committed the disgrace of leaving the soil of my birth; and (2) distastefully lacking in the all-important genetic heritage that would make me a True stalwart of these great islands.

But honestly, thanks. It's pretty clear that people like me will never be British enough.

YANBU. Proud Remainer here and nowhere near being 'over it'. I don't see how I can be, when the whole foundations of what I thought Britain was have been shaken up overnight, and when the repercussions of this one, deeply flawed, vote are going to be so strongly felt by generations to come. We're barely even getting started, and the potential implications terrify me. The political mood of the country has shifted, and not for the better IMO - elements of xenophobia, authoritarianism and parochialism already creeping in. 48% of the voting public now find themselves effectively disenfranchised. The Tory right has used the post-Brexit chaos to stage a coup and are now in firm control of where the party is headed. Our 'democracy' has been revealed as shambolic and not fit for purpose. The whole thing is one massive disaster playing out in front of us, and I don't see how we're supposed to just ignore it and hope for the best.

Because simply, the radio 4 POV piece included the words "our country's stability depends on social trust...social trust comes from shared language, shared customs", which reads to me as 'we, we, have should a culture that is shared between us", with the obvious exclusion of 'foreign' or 'other' cultures which are not shared (or only when it suits us).

I don't engage with many traditional UK cultural activities, and lots of what I do is london-based, globally influenced & modernist and delightful for it. It is of course possible that the speaker meant "I bloody love cultural diversity and the many influences we have today from all over the world, even when I don't actually engage in those practices or activities or know anyone who does", but he didn't say that, so...

P'raps scatter, another way of looking at it might be "those other people must love their country as much as I, so how terrible must they feel to now be considering leaving?. For that would be the truth, in my case and many of my chums.

But that is exactly what happens.

That's what cultures do.

We have a culture and take in parts of other cultures that we like and reject parts that we don't like.

That is how culture works.

Just to let everyone know that we'll be moving this thread to EU Referendum 2016 at the OP's request.

Lisa
MNHQ