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To not have moved on from the referendum result?

1000 replies

Niamer · 06/10/2016 22:04

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

OP posts:
QueenLizIII · 07/10/2016 12:03

Who the hell brought up workers rights?

FFS Maternity leave in EU law is 14 weeks, in UK it is 52.

The EU doesnt specify ANY minimum pay for maternity leave . In UK it is 90% for first 6 weeks then £140 for next 33 weeks.

Our Equal Pay, Sex Discrimination and Racial Discrimination Acts predate EU. Equal Pay Act 1970?!

Our minimum wage is one of best in world. 10 of the 28 EU countries dont even have a minimum wage.

ah but I forgot. Everything we have we owe to EU.

Nonsense. We did it ourselves.

PageStillNotFound404 · 07/10/2016 12:04

Waytogojo a debate in Parliament would be a good start, particularly since the campaigning took place on cross-party lines.

merrymouse · 07/10/2016 12:04

*It doesn't matter how much I object to Junker, Tusk or the other 1000 I can't name I'm stuck with them'.

I can't vote the Tories out. I live in a safe Tory seat and my vote just tells the incumbent whether he has won by more or less of a landslide.

If I did have a different MP, Brexit isn't being discussed in parliament and neither is much else of May's big new deal that hasn't appeared in any manifesto. Even if I had voted conservative at the last election, I wouldn't have the PM I thought I was voting for.

Whether or not you thought the structure of the EU is democratic, they are still the massive trading block right next door, and we certainly don't have any vote on what they do now.

SukeyTakeItOffAgain · 07/10/2016 12:05

It was clear Page. I can totally see what you mean. She is making it all about foreigners in the belief that she is luring the UKIP voters to Tory-land, even ones who always voted Labour. It's actually very patronising and shows a very unsettling thirst for power.

Lynnm63 · 07/10/2016 12:06

I don't have a problem with immigration. I didn't vote leave because I never wanted to hear another foreign accent. I accept we need immigrants BUT I think we should get to choose as a country how many we take, what qualifications they have, if we need them etc.
I had to be in my local court a few months ago, as a witness not a defendant! 90% up on charges that day were Eastern Europeans, they all rocked up with interpreters one had been here three years, no job, drug addict this was his third conviction and he was back in court as he'd not turned up for his community service. He had a Social Worker, interpreter and another support worker with him. Exactly why contribution was he making? If we got to choose our immigrants hands up how many of you would have picked him.

PageStillNotFound404 · 07/10/2016 12:06

Sex Discrimination Act was 1975 and the Race Discrimination Act 1976, actually.

Lynnm63 · 07/10/2016 12:08

That's when it made it into LAW not when it had its first, second and third readings or was a white paper drafted long before we joined the EEC as none of us voted to join the EU

SukeyTakeItOffAgain · 07/10/2016 12:08

QueenLizll could you tell us what the UK government has done as regards environmental protections all by itself? Given that they're currently being taken to court for ignoring their obligations to protect certain Annexe II Species...

Doesn't fill me with an awful lot of hope regarding the health of this new independent UK. She has already overturned the decision to ban fracking in Lancashire.

FlameGrilled · 07/10/2016 12:09

I'm a (still) devastated remainer. Like a pp up thread, I saw this coming as I have friends and family from so many different backgrounds. I have a community based job that is all about grass roots activism and community cohesion so I know how divided my (70% leave) area is, particularly over matters to do with race (although I know it's unpopular to discuss the race issues of Brexit). I think the popular (largely Murdoch owned) press had a lot to do with the outcome also.

I am a poor, working class, northerner, directly descended from German/Ukraine Jewish immigrants so quite far from the description of remainers as middle class elite. I feel British and I feel European and I was very proud of both these elements to my heritage until now. I no longer recognise my country and feel ashamed of my Britishness and I'm about to lose my European identity also. Yes, I understand that we are still in Europe but the brexit result and rise in xenophobia gives the impression that we don't value our involvement with the continent. There are many saying Britain can manage without the EU and say the world is clamouring to do trade deals with us which also gives the impression that we are somehow superior. I have seen many leavers say they hope the EU project fails without really understanding that will cause economic ripples around the globe and will affect us, even if we leave, much like the banking crash in the USA did. On the 22nd June, all the EU countries lit their buildings with the union flag in a display of solidarity. And we threw it back in their faces. No wonder they are smarting from that rejection.

What has been so difficult (apart from the rise in hate crime and the uncertainty) is the polarising affect of the referendum which is what has truly changed this country. There are no nuanced answers to Brexit. You are a leaver therefore you are racist, hate foreigners, you are stupid, you are brainwashed, you love your country, you are brave, you are a winner. If you are a remainer you love the eu and do not recognise it's flaws, you are brainwashed, you hate your country, you want it to fail, you are a middle class elitist, you are a loser. You can be nothing in between. It highlights the British culture which is built on division: north/south, left/right, English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish, supporter of whatever rival football team. I don't think we recognise just how patriotic/nationalistic we are. It's part of the UK psyche. We recognise it in Americans but we are just the same but in a different way. The referendum and campaign played on this and just made those divisions deeper. We can now also divide ourselves accordingly as remainers/leavers.

What is also worrying is how TMay has jumped on this division to decide that all leavers supported her vision of Brexit and the change of language that mimics a lot of what I see and hear from leavers. She described human rights lawyers as 'activist left[ies]' as if that's a bad thing, critiqued those who are internationalist, talking quite openly in a 'them and us' way when referring to those who are not British born. She is wholesale rejecting anything borne of our European involvement (even when those ideas were initiated by the UK) including the Human Rights Act, the ECHR and the ECJ. I am horrified at this tone and these policies but because it's now become a competition, people are wholesale agreeing with her when only membership of the EU was up for the vote.

Direct democracy/referenda doesn't work. I wonder how people feel about the result of the Colombian referendum result? It is clear from anyone with any objectivity that it was a mistake for the Columbian people to reject a peace deal that will save lives. The result was very close and according to my Colombian friends, swayed by their right wing media and those who live in other countries or urban areas who are not as affected by the atrocities. I guess that's still democracy?

I miss the days before the referendum when even though there was some division and many problems, it all still felt possible. I felt hopeful. Now I have an undercurrent of hopelessness and fear of what is happening and what is to come. Sometimes I feel despondent and wish I didn't care. Sometimes I wish I'd voted leave (and I did consider it from a Lexit perspective but quickly rejected this as impossible under a Tory government) just so I wouldn't have such a vested interest. I hear people saying get behind Brexit to make the most of it but what can we do now? It is all in the hands of politicians I didn't vote for, a PM that got in with a manifesto that has never been put to the public vote. We are at their mercy. There is no control, there never was, they were lying when they said control is what we were voting for.

Despite that, I still aim to do my bit. I'm still doing community work (now as a volunteer as my funding has been cut). I want to get more involved in campaigns that aim to hold the media and politicians to account. Whatever way you voted, what we should all be able to agree to is that the media gets away with far too much spin and politicians can say whatever they like. If we are ever to decide for ourselves what is right then we can only do that with cold, hard facts. The media is a mainstay of any healthy democracy but they are failing us abysmally.

QueenLizIII · 07/10/2016 12:11

Sex Discrimination Act was 1975 and the Race Discrimination Act 1976, actually.

You know how long it takes to pass legislation right?!

It doesnt just show up on the day fully written.

It will have been in contemplation and being drafted and getting assent considerably before the EU in 1975 Hmm

SukeyTakeItOffAgain · 07/10/2016 12:12

Great post FlameGrilled

merrymouse · 07/10/2016 12:13

if she has no mandate for hard, nor for soft, but the electorate voted for out....what do you suggest she does?

It suggests it was a really stupid thing to have a referendum on because nobody really understood what they were voting for.

I mentioned the 52% because while it is true that only 48% of people who actually voted voted remain, the same applies to people who voted to leave.

MitzyLeFrouf · 07/10/2016 12:13

I am horrified at this tone and these policies but because it's now become a competition, people are wholesale agreeing with her when only membership of the EU was up for the vote.

Yep, the ref result seems to have been taken as carte blanche to turn the UK into a Tory theme park.

PageStillNotFound404 · 07/10/2016 12:14

The TUC undertook a review of EU worker rights and despite EU laws occasionally limiting the scope of unions, were unequivocal in their conclusion of the significant benefits of EU legislation for UK workers.

I appreciate this makes me a member of the sneering liberal elite, but I'll trust their considered appraisal over that of an Internet stranger with no apparent credentials.

www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/UK%20employment%20rights%20and%20the%20EU.pdf

Niamer · 07/10/2016 12:15

So if she has no mandate for hard, nor for soft, but the electorate voted for out....what do you suggest she does? confused

Have a vote on the destination, as suggested by Libdems. I can accept that a slim majority voted for Leave - that is a fact. What I cannot accept, is her repeatedly saying "The British people have clearly expressed they want to end freedom of movement" . We could finish up with a total dog's dinner of a Brexit that may be 10% of the population envisaged.

OP posts:
PageStillNotFound404 · 07/10/2016 12:18

We joined the EEC, as it was then, in 1973. Three whole years before the RDA, for example.

If you're not even aware of that basic fact, QueenLiz, I'm not sure there's any point continuing to debate with you.

Lynnm63 · 07/10/2016 12:18

The EU legislation yes BUT that doesn't mean we wouldn't STILL have that legislation or better. There are lots of situations where our laws are better Maternity pay was one example. No one is advocating ripping up all workers rights. Unless I fell asleep at a crucial part of T May's speech I don't remember the bit where we are sending kids back up chimneys.

PageStillNotFound404 · 07/10/2016 12:19

Excellent post, FlameGrilled.

Shellekin · 07/10/2016 12:20

I voted Remain and also felt devastated by the result, on a rational and emotional level.

I've learnt to live with it as it has become apparent that there is no way back, but that doesn't mean I feel any less strongly that it was the wrong decision, made based on lies and misconceptions.

The race hate crimes that have escalated are beyond anything I imagined, it saddens and disgusts me that these people have used the result to justify their actions.

The Pound is now at a 30 year low and yet the deniers still claim it was scare mongering.

I'll always regret the result but I guess we have to make the best of what we're left with.

Lynnm63 · 07/10/2016 12:21

page it takes years to get legislation through Parliament. The fact it came into force in 1976 does not prove it wasn't going through the legislative process for three years nor does it prove as a fact there would not have been such an act WITHOUT the EEC particularly as then the lie about it being a trade organisation rather than Federal Europe was still being told.

Petronius16 · 07/10/2016 12:22

On one of the Referendum16 threads I mentioned I voted No at the 75 Referendum and since then saw nothing to change my mind. Yet I voted Remain. At the last minute. Because? Well, OP has said that's not the point of the thread.

However, the more I read on these threads the more I'm pleased I voted Remain.

I'm not gutted, upset, lived too long to worry about how the country votes, but just keep reminding people of what they voted for.

Lynnm63 · 07/10/2016 12:23

The pound was too high to start with plus it went up as people speculated before referendum then it dropped as people speculated again.

Elendon · 07/10/2016 12:26

Brilliant post FlamedGrilled

Justchanged · 07/10/2016 12:26

Scatterolight - I have listened to the podcast linked above. The speaker was articulate with perfect received pronunciation and soothing tones. Essentially his argument was that our identity and cohesiveness is all to do with our nation state and has been built up through centuries and cannot be understood unless you have the heritage; the EU vote was a question of identity and when asked to vote on identity, the result is hardly surprising. Especially as the British people want to be able to decide for all for themselves without interference from the wider world.

I come from Northern Ireland and so have heard similar arguments about identity politics many, many times but usually in a much more strident tone. A soothing tone does not make them less divisive, inward-looking, nationalistic or intolerant (how does shared identify work if Polish people move in next door?)

Niamer · 07/10/2016 12:28

The EU legislation yes BUT that doesn't mean we wouldn't STILL have that legislation or better. There are lots of situations where our laws are better Maternity pay was one example. No one is advocating ripping up all workers rights. Unless I fell asleep at a crucial part of T May's speech I don't remember the bit where we are sending kids back up chimneys

What an expensive palava though just to reinvent the wheel. Another benefit of EU membership - invisible but with each and everyone of us every day - Peace. Not sure we can put a price on that.

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