To be a bit surprised that 60% of us think of ourselves as working class?

[BlancheBlue]

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jun/29/most-brits-regard-themselves-as-working-class-survey-finds

This really. Does this this figure surprise you? I thought more people identified as middle class or I suppose it depends on company and context!

Of course class is hard to define ranging from being "a state of mind" to people basing it on income, background, how you describe meals etc etc!

When I was child I thought I was upper class because I couldn't imagine anyone being better off than we were except possibly the Queen. Then I realised that some people were aristocrats so I downgraded myself to middle class as I didn't have a title. Then I realised that some middle class people did things we didn't like ski, go to private school, have holidays where you actually got on a plane and went somewhere exotic, and had two cars, and possibly a horse. Then I came onto Mumsnet and found out that as I am teacher, I am not even considered to be lower middle class.

"Yes we have hairdressers. Generally in some kind of quasi self employment where they pay rent for a chair in a salon. Its not well paid. Its certainly no replacement for ship building. A hairdresser might be hit harder than an accountant for lots of reasons.
Less money to start with so no cushion against hard times,
May be claiming top up benefits so vulnerable to cuts,
More likely to need communal resources such as libraries and sure start centres so disproportionately effected by their closure."

URGH! Sorry but this is still shit. Who owns the salon the rent the chair from? A working class person!

Well arguably once you get into salon owning territory- that's you moving into the middle class. Depending on how well the salon is doing I suppose.
We clearly have different analyses of class but I like my understanding better. Your version (that seems to depend purely on culture and birth) seems to obscure more than illuminate.

Because it allows you to point to successful people (business owners and the like) and say "Well he/she is very comfortable and is working class- it doesn't mean anything"
And meanwhile society is becoming more and more divided and unequal.

A hair salon owner is very unlikely to be middle class.

Why not?
Once you get to the point where you are living partly on other peoples labour, not purely your own, then that's classicly petit bougouis.
A successful business owner is certainly someone I describe as middle class.

I certainly wouldn't class a business owner (unless its a business of one or a family-run business) as working class - you can't be working class if you are making money off the labour of others.

It doesn't surprise me that people self identify as working class, because self identifying as middle class is seen by many people as being full of yourself.

I'm middle class, have always been middle class, always will be. I don't usually describe myself as any class IRL because as soon as you say you're middle class everyone accuses you of thinking you're better than other people. It's easier to say nothing.

You can buy middle class status, you were either born into it or not. I wasn't, you could argue I am now with masters education, bla bla bla bla (this mindless boating bores me) but I am working class, my accent gives me away, my body language gives me away, my family of course, my lack of knowledge in the arts, music, history. I will always be working class I'll never escape it, my siblings love to remind me on many occasion but my kids have been born into middle class and there kids and so the dilution of working class roots begin. Kate Middleton is a great example of this, she'll never ever be upper class, she is middle class married to a Royal

You CANNOT buy middle class status! Bloody autocorrect

Well that's rubbish natsku- by that reasoning every self employed builder is middle class. Every bloke who does the work in your house and subcontracts some out.

Every market stall trader, newsagent owner, greasy spoon cafe owner- not middle class stuff is it?

Sometimes I read things like that- every business owner is middle class- and think- have they ever met a middle class person?

Car garage owner ffs

A business of one and family-run businesses obviously take out the self-employed threebed anyone that owns a business that employs non-related people is what I'm talking about, like a hair salon.

Sub-contracting is different as its not the same as employing someone, doesn't have the same tax-load for example (I know this well, OH and his dad have their own business - they cannot afford to employ anyone, if they could they wouldn't be working class for sure)

I don't even understand what you mean. All those examples employ people there are not related to.

It's beyond ridiculous to say that a marker of class is whether you employ people.

I am middle class and have no desire to claim to be working class. I feel comfortable speaking to people no matter which 'class' they belong to. I do understand the want to be seen as a bit more 'edgy' though in certain circles (say the music industry for instance) rather than coming from a nice boring background.

sorry nice BUT boring background

A self-employed person doesn't employ anyone. A family-run business typically has father and son or other closely related family members. They are not who I am talking about when it comes to business owners - surely you can see the difference?

It doesn't surprise me that people self identify as working class, because self identifying as middle class is seen by many people as being full of yourself.

^^this. If you think about the USA, the vast, vast majority of people describe themselves as 'middle class' whereas in Britain a very large proportion of them would be considered absolutely working class. It's a difference in national character; in Britain it's seen to be boastful or undesirable to assert 'You're better than you are' while in the US they are so highly aspirational that everyone is a
Millionaire In Waiting .

I am from neither place so this is from an outsiders perspective, but I can tell you that when I worked in the UK I was fascinated by the rigidity of the class system and how people instantly placed themselves and others within a hierarchy. Part of it was accent, part was where they were educated, part of it was birthplace. As an outsider (who couldnt possibly read all the subtle markers of difference, nor give a shiny shit about them) I was able to seamlessly move across social groups in a way that locals seemed to do far less. This was in London, in a very established institution.

All societies have hierarchies of course. I don't think it's unique to the UK at all, although the British class system is possibly more overt (still) because it was insitutionalised for such a long time and it's still got real life, political and social implications.

Class used to be a huge divider in Finland. In my town what sporting clubs you could join depended on who you voted for and who you voted for of course depended on your social class. It wasn't that long ago that that stopped.

Yesterday 21:42 Natsku

A self-employed person doesn't employ anyone. A family-run business typically has father and son or other closely related family members. They are not who I am talking about when it comes to business owners - surely you can see the difference?

^^ yes natsku of course I can see the difference. What I'm confused about is why you are talking about it. I said a business owner is a builder who sub contracts. I have no idea why you're talking about father son builders.

Threebedsemi For clarity, where would you say the middle class starts on the A, B, C social grade?

I would put C1 as the lower middle class. Working class is C2, D and E.

Socio economic grouping is established and not really up for debate. Working class, middle class, upper class is not as simply established as looking at your job, education and what you spend money on.

I can give you examples in my friendship group:

Person a: working class

Grew up in an owned house: mother clerical worker father builder. Left school at 16 to work in travel agent. Travelled for a couple of years at 18 through established back packer trails. Eventually trained and qualified as a financial advisor.
Married to a builder - owned property. Live in a middle class area where they grew up. 3 children dressed in Boden which she prefers. Drives a Range Rover and a golf.

Person b middle class. Private school and top uni, travelled for 1 year at 18 and taught in a school in Africa. Friends all very similar. Plays for a hockey club. Friends now tend to be top lawyers, head mistresses doctors. Lived abroad for a few years. Have 2 kids, drives a quasqui.

Friend C upper class- family owns half of Suffolk

"Socio economic grouping is established and not really up for debate. Working class, middle class, upper class is not as simply established as looking at your job, education and what you spend money on."

Sure but you can give a general indication at least?
You've already expressed the idea that class is largely dependant on background and does not change over the course of a persons life 9which i disagree with).

But for the sake of argument. C1 over the previous 2 generations: Is that person middle class? I get the impression that you would start the middle class somewhat above where I would. In the proffesions?

I would largely agree with the catogorisation of your friends by the way

Excuse spelling and typos. Toddler crawling over me!