To be a bit surprised that 60% of us think of ourselves as working class?

[BlancheBlue]

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jun/29/most-brits-regard-themselves-as-working-class-survey-finds

This really. Does this this figure surprise you? I thought more people identified as middle class or I suppose it depends on company and context!

Of course class is hard to define ranging from being "a state of mind" to people basing it on income, background, how you describe meals etc etc!

"Today 09:46 unlimiteddilutingjuice

"Unlimited I'm a bit confused- why can't working class people go to cottages in the highlands"

Obviously I'm not saying that working class people never do this. That would be absurd. But, yes, its a pattern of behaviour I would associate with the middle class. Not for financial reasons necessarily. Working class youngsters are less likely to move far from their families for example- so might be hosting Christmas or expecting to visit nearby relatives on boxing day.

"Working class people aren't like your neighbour. She sounds like someone in poverty. She may also be working class, but the 2 aren't connected"

Unfortunately where I live there is very widespread poverty and it absolutely is working class people who experience it. Its a very common working class experience in my area, at the moment. Obviously not saying all working class people are in poverty- that's clearly not the case. But to say that poverty isn't connected to class: really?! At all?!.

To be frank, a statement like that just shows the danger in seeing class a solely to do with tastes, culture and background."

I don't mean to keep picking on you unlimited but I think all the above is showing is that you don't have an understanding of what defines class, and I suspect you think middle class is achieved my patterns of behaviour (hiring a cottage rather than a caravan, buying at waitrose rather than sainsbury, reading the indi rather than the sun)

But these are ultimately consumer Decisons driven by marketing and you "buying" a lifestyle.

This is the generally accepted definition of middle class on MN- what you spend your money on dictates your class. But that's not what class is about.

People of all classes live in poverty. Tbh the people you describe- long term unemployed, living off benefits inadequate for their needs, social problems etc.. They are not people who fit into the definition of working class, as class is, of course, driven by work.

That is a relatively new phenomena based on the fact that in the Olden days the very poorest weren't really considered part of society at all. Unkind people label them the "under class" - not fitting into any class system.

I'm surprised it's that low.

Urgh underclass actually read that a few time on munsnet

Interesting topic! Funny how we still harp on about class in Britain, when it's so hard to define these days. It's definitely not about money, if you think about someone like Cheryl Cole, or footballers etc - they've got millions but didn't earn it by using their brains, but I would say they are still working class. I don't know what I am, born in terraced house up North, grandfathers both miners, I'm a teacher, listen to R4, don't buy newspapers (this used to be a good yardstick!), drive a small economical car, don't shop at Waitrose but do like Lidl... anyway who cares?

dinosaursarebisexual Thu 06-Oct-16 20:02:43

Anyone here been in a working men's club? Thought not.

Yes, actually. My ex-miner FIL's funeral bash was held in one. They let us have it for free since he was on the committee. My dad always insisted he was no longer working class (he had a very poor upbringing - his mam was born in the workhouse. His dad was a dockworker) but still went to the social club with his mates to play dominoes.

Yes, I have a degree and postgrad qualifications and DH has a degree and a professional career. We live in a predominantly working class area close to where he grew up - cheap and actually very low crime. I shop in Waitrose and M&S because we like the food, but we also shop in Aldi, Lidl, Home Bargains etc because why wouldn't you?

If we really must be assigned to a "class" then it's probably that newfangled "Technical Middle Class." Pigeonholing people strictly is a somewhat pointless exercise, though, including the criteria of whether or not someone has set foot in a WMC, Labour Club or similar.

people are not desperate to be working class

no one wants to be struggling making ends meet for the basics in life - that is not for every family but it is for many

its fashionable to have come from those struggles and many claim to have experienced that or that wealth doesn't matter them

when you are in a situation and you are from a different class to almost everyone else you then realise how prevalent it is still in our society

"I suspect you think middle class is achieved my patterns of behaviour (hiring a cottage rather than a caravan, buying at waitrose rather than sainsbury, reading the indi rather than the sun)"

I don't know how you've got that from what I've said. The one example I gave of a "middle class" pattern of behaviour (hiring a cottage for Christmas)- I immediately tied into a wider social context.

At the risk of repeating myself: Its very common for middle class youngsters to move some distance from parents by e.g: attending university in another town, taking up a proffesional job opportunity in a different city. Then, when they become adults they may be more likely to go away for Christmas because they are not living nearby family who would expect them to visit or host them.

They are not "buying a middle class lifestyle". But they are doing something that might be indicative of their greater opportunities and mobility.

I think I have a pretty good grasp of class actually. Its a mix of economic conditions, social capital and culture. In that order or importance, I would argue.

Well said Enthusiamdisturbed!
Class is not a parlour game where everyone gets to go "Oooh, My grandad was a miner but my Mums a teacher, what does that make me then?"
Its an actual system of oppression that hurts people.

"Tbh the people you describe- long term unemployed, living off benefits inadequate for their needs, social problems etc.. They are not people who fit into the definition of working class, as class is, of course, driven by work."

Well that's a lot of lurid detail you managed to add from the information I gave you (on benefits and sanctioned just before Christmas)!

Fwiw I don't believe there's any such thing as an underclass. There's no evidence, for example, of significant numbers of people who stay unemployed all their lives, much less over more than one generation.
What we do have (where I live) is a community of people who have been hit by a lack of traditionally male, working class skilled manual jobs who are now having to get by on lower paid care and service industry work. Sometimes topped up with benefits. Sometimes alternating between short term low paid work and benefits.
In the 1970's they would have been in the position someone upthread described: well paid working class jobs, consumer goods and free time to enjoy them. That's the position I'd like to return to.

I wasn't talking about your neighbour. I was talking generally. You're the one who seems
To think working class = dirt poor

Where I live it more or less does!
That's not the case everywhere. Natku up thread knows a lot of comfortably off working class people. Where she lives there is manufacturing and industry. Where I live: not so much.
There's been a recent recession. There is a government policy of austerity. Things are not good for the working class right now. If an understanding of class doesn't help us to understand these circumstances then what is it for?

Ok let's pick some working class jobs

Hairdresser
Electrician
Locksmith
Bar tender
Brick layer
PA in a large company
Mechanic
Nursery nurse
Train driver
Taxi driver

How have these people been more adversely affected by austerity than anyone else?

You don't have these people where you live? You have no shops, no trains, no buses, no offices?!

Indeed, working class in an area that there's work (outside of the service industry) are likely to be quite comfortable in their income but working class in areas with no traditional working class jobs are more likely to be struggling.

I would say the rise in the numbers who consider themselves working class (whatever that means) is to do with drop incomes over the last few years.

But it is an interesting subject, because there is no universally accepted definition of these terms. Are people referring to culture, income or heritage?

You are seriously arguing that working class people have been no harder hit by austerity than anyone else?

I'm actually not sure where to begin with that.

How is a hairdresser harder hit than an accountant?

And I would still love to hear about areas with no hairdressers

Thank you Natsku that's what I was getting at. And apologies for getting your name wrong. Where do you live BTW? I'm guessing somewhere Scandinavian?

You don't know where to begin, unlimited, because you are trying, utterly incorrectly, to claim that working class= on benefits

Yes we have hairdressers. Generally in some kind of quasi self employment where they pay rent for a chair in a salon. Its not well paid. Its certainly no replacement for ship building. A hairdresser might be hit harder than an accountant for lots of reasons.
Less money to start with so no cushion against hard times,
May be claiming top up benefits so vulnerable to cuts,
More likely to need communal resources such as libraries and sure start centres so disproportionately effected by their closure.

Finland unlimited

Working class are hit harder because they are less likely to have savings to tide them over when jobs were lost, and they have much lower purchasing power to be able to afford the increased prices of goods.

"you are trying, utterly incorrectly, to claim that working class= on benefits"

That's a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I said that poverty is not unusual for working class people where I live. Which is true.

Ah, Finland! Land of full employment, baby boxes and plumbers in your sauna. Sounds lovely :)

"much lower purchasing power to be able to afford the increased prices of goods"
Yes, that too! Rent, food and fuel have all increased in price. The increased cost takes up a much greater proportion of a small income compared to a larger one.

Bloody high unemployment really but benefits are decent so people don't have to rely on food banks.