To question whether this child should be in mainstream school?

[Goldenhandshake]

There is a child in my DC's year 3 class, I do not know the extent of his learning difficulties or conditions, I have spoken to his mum on a few occasions and she has stated he has ADHD, however there may be more she hasn't divulged, always assumed it was none of my business tbh. She was very open in saying he had set his siblings coat on fire previously (whilst the sibling was wearing it!).

However I am becoming increasingly worried, he has had several very violent outburst in class and the playground, he has been pulled off another child after wrapping his hands round his throat and choking the lad, has thrown a chair at the teacher and broken a window. It sounds very much like he has difficulty controlling his anger and I am now concerned for my DC's safety.

I don't want to be one of those parents who pushes out children for being different or having complex needs, but I equally do not want the worry that he will attack or harm my child.

So WIBU to request a meeting or call with the school to find out what they are doing to either limit the risk or manage this child's needs appropriately and keep the rest of the class safe?

I completely understand the OP's concerns. But people tend to be angry at the child or the parents, or at least the parents seem to get the brunt of the anger from other parents, when they can least cope with it while they're fighting the school, the LA, and likely the GP/paed as well (and heaven only knows what else).

People often do not understand that the child and the parent are at the mercy of the system and cannot move forward to get the needed support.

I wonder how many people on here are aware that for many many parents, if they notice developmental or behavioural problems with their children, their GP will refuse to allow them a referral to get help until the school agrees?? My son's school refused to cooperate. I had to kick off hugely in the GP's office to get a referral - I got lucky, the GP relented. When we finally got to the paediatrician, she sent paperwork to the school to complete. Three months later they still had not completed it and sent it to her, despite numerous written reminders to the school from both myself and the paed. They refused to cooperate.

I know people that cannot even get the referral as GP refuses without school agreement and school insists that the child is fine. They don't want to have parents on an in-road to a statement/EHCP as that means they will be required to pay for support. Imagine going to your GP, knowing something is wrong with your child, and being told that unless the school agrees, you cannot get further help for your child! People who have children with SEN are being told that!

And this is just one of the many reasons so many children are going without the support they need.

I know it is not the child or parents fault. But the OP is understandably most concerned about her child.

As a parent of an Autistic child who is violent when he has meltdowns.

I will tell you what the schools can do to provide more support.

FOLLOW THE FUCKING EHCP/IEP

OH, and here's another suggestion.

STOP STEALING THE EHCP FUNDING FOR OTHER KIDS AND ACTUALLY SPEND IT ON THE CHILD IT BELONGS TO.

As to the OP.  Honestly, if this childs mother is anything like me, every time this happens she will feel like shit, and probably like she is fighting a losing battle to get her child the support he needs. I know when my DS threw a chair last term, i was absolutely mortified.. but then i was PISSED because i found out they hadn't been following his IEP and i made a formal complaint.

Quite frankly, you going in will do very little.

You have to move mountains to get your child in a specialist school.. my son is too 'high functioning' to get in one, despite every day being a battle to even get him into school, and his spending much of the day in his calm room because he can't cope. THey've been back a month, i can count his good days on 3 fingers. (and those good days are the ones he doesn't hit/kick/punch or throw things at people)

Maddy if your child's EHCP is a quantified and specified one that the school aren't meeting go directly to the LA because they will exert pressure on the school as it would be the LA in court if you pursued it.
There used to be a template on IPSEA of the letter you needed to send.

Do you know how hard it is to get an EHCP approved? In our authority, the child has to be making absolutely no progress for it to be agreed. If they are making even the smallest amount of progress, it is not approved.

We are given a certain amount of time with the Ed psych. We are a large school with a high level of SEN. We have the 'hours' for him to see perhaps 5 children this year at a push. We have to literally choose who is struggling the most. You generally can't get an EHCP or the funding for a TA in our authority without support from the EP.

It is SO hard. We have no money. We are trying our absolute best to support children and are considered a very good school for children with additional needs but it's a massive juggling act because of money and funding cuts.

And everything takes so long - waiting for reports, filling in the application form for more money (we don't automatically get money for a 1:1 TA - it's a huge form and is often declined). And if it's approved (it took us 7 months to get one approved for a child who desperately need it) you have to find the funds from your own dwindling budget but it's so hard.

There is hardly any behavioural support in our local authority - it's been cut.

I was attacked by a 6ft boy in my (primary) class. He had a statement which was stool to rigedly and I personally successfully transferred him to an EHC plan. He had constant 1:1 support. We knew all the signs, had put everything in place. It didn't stop me from being attacked in the work place because the nature of primary schools is they they're unpredictable and I couldn't have anticipated the trigger that caused him to become overwhelmed.

I think my point is that yes, I'm sure some schools are not up to standards at all, and are hugely letting children down. But some of us are working so so hard for these children with little support/funding and it still goes wrong.

I haven't RTFT but how quaint that the OP even suggests that she could march up to the school and demand he us removed
Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a SN placement
My DD is 10 and I have been fighting to get her out of mainstream since she was 4
The bloody school didn't even want to go for statement(as it was then)
She will get SN provision this year but some are dire so a new battle, to get a suitable school
All those years wasted

Betweentwolungs when it comes to an EHCP schools would be better at asking and supporting the parents to apply early and advise them to appeal if it is refused. That way the LA end up funding the ed psych as they can't go to Tribunal without an assessment by an ed psych at least I've just appealed dd's statement, her full reassessment is coming out of the LA's pocket and not the school's.

insanity, they're being cute about it. DS has 25hrs of funding, but they say he doesn't need cover during ICT or PE or Science as he engages with those lessons, so they have tried to say 5hrs of his provision is covering his lunch break.

Only where he goes for his lunchbreak, isn't put on for HIM, its already staffed and provided for a large group of children and has always been in place since long before DS needed it.

They have also started removing the ta employed as his 1:1 to provide interventions for other children for 4hrs a week.

i am keeping close eye on them, and i am not above taking it to the LA if i think they're taking the piss and can't show me how they're using the 25hrs to my satisfaction.

To those people who say the school are failing him, do you think everything is within the school's control? I worked 1:1 with a child a few years ago and so many of his outbursts were linked to the home environment. Yes, he had special needs but when there was anger and tension at home he found it much harder to cope. He would come in to school in a dreadful state and lash out at others. The head reached out to the local authority when a third member of staff had hurt by him, only to be told there were no suitable places anywhere else. Fast forward six months, mum and dad had separated but were civil to each other and we had a happy child who still had SEN but was no longer kicking walls and punching computer screens. It was like night and day. It was actually depressing to realise that no matter how hard we tried to manage the situation, the solution wasn't in our hands. It's easy for onlookers to sit and judge the school and the child when they don't know the details.

Insan - problem is by the time it's appealed/gets to tribunal etc the child's either been struggling for several months (as everything takes so lonnggggg) or we have been funding it, cutting money from other areas which are already desperately tight. Sometimes better to just get the EP in so it gets approved and we can get a specific 1:1 TA in quickly.

Just annoys me with people saying school is failing when they have no idea what this specific school is doing or trying. You can't ring up and get the ed psych in the next day - it doesn't work like that, and what do you do in the mean time? As discussed every child is an individual and it takes time to work out what support they need. Issues can and certainly do arise while the school (and associated professionals) work out what to do. Don't just assume the school is failing - we don't know that.

Maddy It's shit isn't it? Dd gets decent support now but that's only because I have made myself the biggest PITA and they know I won't let them fail dd. They document every minute of support given to dd to my satisfaction now which gives me the proof I need to illustrate if they aren't doing exactly what they should be doing. Last week a TA got muddled and didn't turn up to a lesson, within the hour of my email the SENCo was on the phone apologising letting me know what had been put in place to ensure it never happened again and explaining where the hour that had been missed would be made up. They can do it and they do do it especially when a PITA parent polices them.

Get the ed psych the next day? Ha ha. Try next school year if you're lucky in our area.

Between but it takes a long while for the school to get support in anyway, they are subject to the same timescales and ultimately it will be the parent who has to appeal so far better that the school passes on the ed psych costs to the LA imo.
Ds and dd had statements without ever setting foot inside a nursery even (they were only three) I will forever be grateful that the team who did the diagnosis set the ball rolling with education as well. It was very straightforward when I didn't need to rely on a school for evidence of need or support.

Exactly my point bestthingever. We plan our ed psych visits a term in advance and we have a list of children who need to be seen, some who have been waiting for a while. For another child to be seen, one of those would have to not be. We've just had a new child join who needs an EHCP and needs to be seen by the ed psych but now I face the decision of which other child (who I previously thought needed EP as a priority) now won't be seen for at least another term.

Taking this back to the op's original post, raise your concerns about your dd's safety with the teacher. Put it in writing if you want a more formal record.

My DS was regularly attacked by a boy with SN when they were in year 3. It was awful. DS was scared and sick on schooldays. I felt v sorry for the boy and his parents as he wasn't getting the care he needed.

I complained under the bullying policy in the end. This was after constantly being told measures were in place to protect DS. In the space of a week, I'd been called in as DS had suspected concussion after having his head rammed against something, then he was throttled in the playground on another day.

After the final assault, the other lad was suspended. He then threw a chair at a TA (one he'd bitten on various other occasions) and was suspended again. He's now left the school.

In all honesty, I'm really relieved. I have the utmost sympathy for him and his parents, but he needed to be in a school that could cater for his needs.

We absolutely encourage parents to go via GP and support in any way we can. Whichever way is quickest.

Plus don't forget - there are some disruptive children who's parents are not supportive. We have a child who is very disuriptive and parents will not agree to any form of support or outside agency. We do what we can but it's incredibly difficult.

Bestthing I put dd's appeal in end of June, dd had a full reassessment (half a day) the first full week back after the long holiday so dd had been in school four weeks from my request to being seen. It didn't come out of the school's allocation either but in addition instead. A lot of it is knowing how to play the game and getting some support from IPSEA or SOSSEN so that you are aware of what the process is.

Our path to get the ehcp was pretty snooth from when we applied BUT that was because by that point we had already included pretty much every agency going so with reports from all of them it was pretty hard for them to not do anything as it was obvious that he needed the support to meet his needs. I think it was 7 different professionals who all submitted their reports, many of which outlined extra things school needed to do on a daily/weekly basis.

Like so many things it seems to come down to having people around who can/will fight and being able to have the documents which are worded in just the right way to get the boxes ticked. I have been lucky that ds school has an amazing senco, we wouldn't have got where we have without her!

So glad for you but unfortunately your experience is not common.

They don't need to go to the GP though you need to direct them to IPSEA or SOSSEN who will give free support every step of the way. They will help with making the request, support with appeals the whole process. If schools don't know what a parent can do themselves to secure support and who can support them to secure it then they are failing the children right at the beginning.

I have worked 1 to 1 with children with ADHD and never felt I was doing enough. In my experience violent outbursts tended to happen at unstructured tjmes, for example moving to another classroom or at playtime. Those children tended to feel overwhelmed and couldn't cope. It's really hard for everyone concerned because as much as you try to monitor the situation things can go wrong. We had a new teacher who dismissed one of my pupils into the playground for break. He shouldn't have been there and during that short time before id got out he'd hit another child and was excluded for three days. I dont think teachers themselves get enough training in dealing with ADHD and those children affected by it are being badly let down as the support is not their to help the schools manage. It's an all round shitty situation.

Which I acknowledged in my post!

I used to work in a school - many of the SEN kids coped fine - weren't violent

There were plenty of NT kids who were - they were the ones taking the teachers time - attention seeking -

I think this thread assumes SEN child when he may well have troubles at home - or no boundaries in place at home so continues his reign of terror at school

Either way - OP has a right to ask questions about her child's safety and education

Ask what his targets are are if they're being met - how does he concentrate in that environment?

Thank god I don't have to deal with this shit so much any more downward slope here, just GCSEs to go and then just fuck off, maybe. Primary was the absolute worst - for situations that OP describes, she wants to be nice but wants the kid out really. Well I was the parent of a different kid that nice or not the parents wanted him out too. DS felt it and his behaviour escalated I have never felt like such shit and been treated like such shit in my life - so totally heartbreaking watching so many people who claim to care be so willing to throw my son on the scrapheap. And so many gossiping and explaining it as 'parenting' problems, just parents and TAs like best. Whilst he was awaiting his eventual dx of ASD.

It's late, it's Friday and I should go to bed but FUCK YOU shitty people who nearly destroyed our lives but you fucking didn't, we have got through and to the other side you ignorant fucking shits.

Phew that felt good - a little ranty vent after 8 years of dealing with the SEND education system. Nighty night.