To question whether this child should be in mainstream school?

[Goldenhandshake]

There is a child in my DC's year 3 class, I do not know the extent of his learning difficulties or conditions, I have spoken to his mum on a few occasions and she has stated he has ADHD, however there may be more she hasn't divulged, always assumed it was none of my business tbh. She was very open in saying he had set his siblings coat on fire previously (whilst the sibling was wearing it!).

However I am becoming increasingly worried, he has had several very violent outburst in class and the playground, he has been pulled off another child after wrapping his hands round his throat and choking the lad, has thrown a chair at the teacher and broken a window. It sounds very much like he has difficulty controlling his anger and I am now concerned for my DC's safety.

I don't want to be one of those parents who pushes out children for being different or having complex needs, but I equally do not want the worry that he will attack or harm my child.

So WIBU to request a meeting or call with the school to find out what they are doing to either limit the risk or manage this child's needs appropriately and keep the rest of the class safe?

I do wonder how many adults on this thread would feel frightened and anxious if a work colleague had hit other colleagues and thrown a chair through a window?

How many adults work with vulnerable adults?

I think thts a great point Brasty 👌

I bet more than half of the posters on Mumsnet in general voted for the tories at the last election, this is what funding cuts mean in real life!

But a child dsnt Choose to witness potentially be subjected to fear and violence in what should be a safe environment. Its totally different to an adult Choosing to work in a setting where this may occur.. Additionally they would have had proper training as to how to protect themselves / act appropriately and have the adult mind to process what is occurring and why. Children don't

My point is that you do not have to be hit yourself to feel frightened and anxious. I think lots here are dismissing the concerns the OP has for her DC by saying things like - well your DC hasn't been hit, so what is the issue? The DC does not have to be hit for it to have a negative impact. It would have a negative impact on me as an adult.

Children don't

THEY SHOULD DO!

THE SCHOOL SHOULD BE TEACHING THIS, SUPPORTING THE CHILD AND STOPPING THE VIOLENCE BEFORE IT GETS TO CRISIS POINT.

child dsnt Choose to witness potentially be subjected to fear and violence in what should be a safe environment.
A child with SN doesn't choose to be violent.

How many adults work with vulnerable adults?

Adulds who CHOSE to work with vulnerable or confused adults are encouraged not to accept assault as a normal part of their jobs

Because if the service users are lashing out it means either:

• triggers are being ignored

or

• where triggers are not being ignored but aggression happens anyway, there is inadequate training or staffing to prevent injury to staff or service users as a result

So NO Adults at work should never expect to be hurt no matter how front line or high risk their job is

Even adults working with elderly people with dementia are encouraged to report all assalts as "assault" even if the person lashing out has no control over it, because if it's reported as assault the root cause can be investigated so that
A. The service user is supported to feel less distressed in the environment
and
B. The correct staffing and training is in place to prevent injury to staff

no no no
adults in well run work places never have to "accept^ violence no matter their service user groups

so children never should!

exactly

I'm answering the OP's post, who has concern for her daughter. Its not a thread about whether a child with SN chooses to be violent, no1 suggested otherwise. I would be concerned at my child witnessing / potentially being on the receiving end of any harm (accidently being hit in the face by a thrown chair etc). When we send our most precious children to school we should be able to feel safe leaving them there. I dnt think that makes the OP unreasonable?

At secondary you cannot expect to have adults there all the time - yes you can if they have a statement for such (had this very conversation about secondary with EP and SENCO this week)

would you be happy working alongside someone who sometimes hits others? Ummm... no because I don't work with adults with the behavioural maturity of 8 year olds. Even NT 8 year olds are more likely to get frustrated and be much more violent than an adult would.

Questioning whether he should be in mainstream school isn't the same as saying I don't want him there/he needs to be removed - well yes actually it is. And maybe it is something that needs to be questionned (this mythological school that he would be moved to) but NOT BY YOU.

You can express your concern to school about how it is affecting your DS and no further. You can even tell the school that if it does not improve you will move your DS. It would be a gross invasion of this childs privacy for school to be discussing with you (a random parent unrelated to this child or even directly affected by his violence) whether he should be at this school or some other.

And in case you think I'm biased - I should reiterate that my child has no particular record or inflicting violence on others and plenty of them being violent to him.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6196098.stm
Labour closed many special schools.

However surely it should be questioned, surely all avenues should be considered/explored?
Don’t go there. Really, just don’t. You said yourself that you have no idea what this boy’s needs are. And equally you have no idea what other educational “avenues” (if any) exist that would meet his needs better than mainstream education. So what could you usefully say?

Stick to what you can talk about - which is your DD’s right to be safe in school and to feel safe in school. If his behaviour has escalated and the outbursts you talked about are recent then maybe the school need to do more (or call in extra resources or whatever else). You have the right to information (hopefully reassurance) about what is being done protect your DD. But your right to "transparency" stops with your own DD's needs.

Kewcumber - I was talking about young people without sen. Obviously those needing close supervision or support at lunch time etc should have it. Ds has full time 1:1.

But your right to "transparency" stops with your own DD's needs.

I disagree
I agree so far as individuals go
but I disagree in general, I think the school should be transparent about what it has in place for groups my child doesn't belong to and I do think that he general running of the school is my business as none of it happens in isolation
Whether it's how the school supports children with low levels of english or how they support children with SENs etc.. The school can be generally transparent about its policies and proceedures without disclosing anything about individuals

Just because my child does not have SENs or English as a second language does not mean it's not my business or that whether the school supports other children well or poorly doesn't affect my child's time in the school.

For those that are thinking the school is "working behind the scenes to fix the situation" let me share a few things we experienced.

My son was given a pre-assessment by outgoing (retiring) senco towards end of school year, who stated he likely has dyslexia but that it couldn't be confirmed until he was older (he was 4). She also pointed out memory problems, a concern for special needs in general (autism which he eventually diagnosed with), and a list of recommendations for the teacher to implement plus a few referrals that needed to be done (SaLT, OT).

New school year (Y1) and ds goes to school. It's pretty clear he's struggling much more (had IEPs the previous year in R as well). School has a policy that parents are not allowed within the school - the children are herded in a main doorway and go to their classes. Doors are manned by TAs that "are happy to pass messages to the teacher."

DS cannot understand the homework at all and is starting to refuse to even look at it. I send notes in on the homework books, notes in his bag, notes to the TA, messages to the TA "I need to meet with the teacher as he is having difficulties and refusing to do anything related to school." I ring the school, they say teacher will contact me. Nothing. Over and over and over. No, I can't go in the school to speak to the teacher - parents are not allowed in the school. I contact parent partnership who help me draft up a letter demanding a meeting with the teacher, the new senco, the headteacher and myself to discuss the problems. In the meeting, they initially state ds is doing fine - except he isn't. He is way way behind all his peers, struggling to write his name, struggling to read CAC words, struggling to remember things like counting 1-10. I rather thought so - and yet the homework was number bonds to 20, addition and subtraction, spelling, writing sentences. Not differentiated - and when I insisted they differentiate his homework so he could participate, I was told No. I was told to do it myself based on what he was doing in the classroom. Of course, I had no idea what they were doing in the classroom and they refused to send stuff home. The constant excuse I was given? "There are 29 other students in the class - we don't have time." I found out during the meeting that not one of them had even read the report from the previous senco - that was done 6 months prior!

His behaviour was spiralling worse and worse. He was being bullied by a few boys in his class - I had to step in prior to school bell in the morning on more than one occasion and tell them to leave him alone. The school stated it wasn't bullying as he got angry and shouted back at them. When they tried to corner him repeatedly in the playground, he went into meltdown and hit and scratched them to get away. Again, school said not bullying as he fought back. I began bringing him in a separate door for the school. They complained. I stated when they sorted the bullying problem, then I would return to using the other door. They refused, so I continued using the separate door.

The violence just got worse and worse. He couldn't understand any of the school work, they weren't spending any time with him individually (we have 29 other students - we don't have time) and they just kept saying "he'll catch up eventually." I found out later that when he was getting upset, they were putting him in an isolation room by himself and leaving him there.They restrained him without telling me. He was 5. He still gets upset when he remembers it.

They refused to put a 1:1 with him, saying he didn't need it. They refused to bring in the ed psych, saying he didn't need it. They refused to entertain the thought of a EHCP, saying he didn't need it. They did, however, tell me he was at risk of permanent exclusion.

I withdrew him after a particularly nasty incident and now he is home educated. Was I frustrated? You bet. I tried to get him support. I was the one constantly pointing out that they needed to put someone with him to provide support for him or he was reaching a point where he would hurt someone seriously. They told me it wasn't that bad. (but yet he was at risk of exclusion!)

His anxiety level dropped unbelievably after he started home ed. He is making good progress and now that he's 7, he's getting an assessment (paid for by me) for dyslexia so we can continue to address his needs fully.

I'm sure other parents were horrified by his behaviour. God knows I was, but for different reasons. I could see the anxiety, stress, and fear behind it. I knew he needed support. Others didn't.

These children are being failed by the government and the schools. It's appalling that a parent has to watch their child deteriorate before their eyes while the school blithely say the child is fine and doesn't need support. Parents shouldn't have to fight for years and years to get help for their child. All that time wasted when a child could be learning.

So if you want to say something to the school, maybe insist they provide better support for the child. You don't need to know what kind of support, but you can certainly make it known that whatever it currently is, it's likely not enough. It's not just horrible for the other students - it's horrible for the child and their parents, too.

Apologies for the long post.

There will usually be written policies about those things.

Well yes behaviour policies will be available to every parent who asks and so they should be but some children's needs mean that there has to be adjustments made and so they may very well not be subject to the general behaviour policies and no parent is entitled to know this or the reason why.
So for example dd in secondary with a statement would not receive the sanctions that a child in her class would for the same offence. So if homework isn't handed in for example the school's behaviour policy says a strike is recorded (three strikes means a detention) dd would not get a strike nor a detention or anything else as a consequence the teacher wouldn't even comment because of her individual needs.

It isn't always the schools fault. There are only so many strategies you can employ, or TAs available, or calm zones free before actually the child has reached their limit.

Some children genuinely cannot cope in mainstream even with huge amounts of support.

It isn't inclusive education for a teacher to spend 50% of a lesson dealing with one child at the expense of the education of the other 29. No matter what anyone says, it isn't fair.

Blame the government for lack of investment in schools to deal with pupils with SEND, blame the crap schools who do fail some children, but please don't blame all teachers everywhere.

How many of you have read more than one ECHP? The strategies on them a remarkably similar for most pupils regardless of their actual needs,unless the needs are purely medical. They also contain vague statements like "jonny needs support in lessons". What support? A person, an enlarged book, a laptop to write on?

Also I teach a lot of pupils with MLD (mild learning difficulties), yet no one thinks to expand on that and explain the child's actual difficulty.

Nobody is blaming all teachers, all schools everywhere. But there are quite a few out there that are part of the problem.

GingerIvy That sounds horrendous.

No it isn't all teachers or all schools we have had some exceptionally good teachers and equally some exceptionally poor ones though. The good ones I will remember always and ensured they knew how much I valued them the exceptionally poor ones I pursued through the LA for failing to meet the terms of the statement. The really unfortunate children are the ones with poor teachers and without the protection of a statement (or a woolly ineffective one)

But your right to "transparency" stops with your own DD's needs.

I agree so far as individuals go

Good, because the OP was talking about an individual.

GingerIvy - your poor DS and poor you. That is exactly how my DS's school is. All the children with SEN are fine - except they're not. My friend's DS gets restrained and spends quite a lot of time in the head's office, threatened with permanent exclusion while my DS turns his distress inwards and talks about killing himself regularly (he's now 9 and has done since he was 6). They both have quite severe SN and both receive higher rate DLA. But as far as the school is concerned, there are no problems whatsoever. Their anxiety levels are through the roof and their emotional wellbeing is fucked but as long as it's not affecting the overall academic results, the school doesn't care.

If my DS gets his DLA renewed at the current rate I am seriously considering withdrawing him from mainstream. My friend wants to withdraw her DS too. But homeschooling means losing income and that's very hard financially. I still need to pay the mortgage, however unhappy DS is at school :(