To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

Hermione your post.

There is no reason why transwomen should not be allowed to apply for scholarships aimed at women.

I think you'll find there are rather a lot of reasons. You are not required to agree with those reasons or believe that they are valid grounds for limiting women's scholarships to women, but reasons there certainly are.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of transphobia. It is a fact that Transwomen are male. They do not have the same barriers to STEM careers that women do. They should therefore not be eligible for a scholarship which is presumably intended to address the gross imbalance of females in STEM careers.

If I said that TW should be discriminated against in employment that would be transphobia. Stating, entirely correctly, that TW aren't female and aren't women is fact.

Here's a reason.
Transwomen are not women.
Scholarships are created to rebalance an inequality.
But shoehorning even more male people into positions reserved for females makes the inequality worse.

This is why people should be forced to use clear definitions to words.
We all know who is excluded and discouraged from STEM. That particular group makes up 50% of the population and yet occupy only a tiny proportion of STEM places.

There is no reason why transwomen should not be allowed to apply for scholarships aimed at women.

OK from this I am guessing you mean transwomen are women?

This is also...men can be women if they think they are.

As such, woman no longer means woman. As the definition includes men.

Woman now simply means person.

So how can anyone identify with a 'woman' anymore once we decide woman is no longer a thing and it just means person?

Hmm...

This still makes me mad today. A position at an all female college, reserved for a woman BECAUSE WOMEN DO NOT GET THE SAME OPPORTUNITIS AS MEN DO IN PHYSICS was given to a man who identified as a woman. Of course that man had benefitted from a male education not available to women. He had attended an exclusively male college FFS.

Think of all the women who deserved that position. And Greer gets characterised as a transphobe and resigns.

www.independent.co.uk/news/fellows-divided-over-don-who-breached-last-bastion-1257781.html

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachael_Padman

I've only read the last few pages so clearly all the "disgustingly transphobic" talk must have happened earlier, as I ain't seen any here.
Of course in these circumstances woman must not include people who are not women. I'm amazed a transwoman would even apply for it.

iggi apparently it was my OP that was disgustingly transphobic. And your post is also disgustingly transphobic. Biology, facts and evidence? All disgustingly transphobic.

You massive transphobic transphobe.

I would if it wasn't so

I'd rather be transphobic than deluded. Or sell myself and my daughter down the river.
The "transphobic" insult rather bounces off me, I'm afraid

Every so often in these debates we'll get a poster appear - yell "transphobia" - and disappear. A few, to give them credit, do hang around for a bit but, once put on the spot: define the word "woman" for example, bluster a bit then they disappear too.

Accusations of "Transphobe! Terf! Bigot!" are vital to TAs and allies because their arguments are so flimsy they only work while dissenting voices are silenced.

If not silenced, those uppity women make factual points and ask unanswerable questions, or at least questions that can't be answered without revealing the misogyny, homophobia and anti-factual basis of the ideology.

Its so overused it's entirely meaningless. Don't believe that it's possible to change sex? Transphobic. Don't want biological men in women's spaces? Transphobic. Disagree with two year old boys who want to play with dolls being labelled as transgender? Transphobic. Talking about periods? Transphobic. Don't want to have sex with transwomen? Transphobic. Discriminate against transpeople in the workplace? Transphobic. Shout insults at them in the street? Transphobic. Believe transpeople should be killed? Transphobic.

Which of these are really a breach of human rights?

Totally agree Prawn. That's why they like "no platforming" and similar forms of censorship.

I've been banned from an abortion rights group for questioning their use of "pregnant people" and qualifiers like "not only women need to avail of safe legal abortion". I suppose it wasn't surprising given the no-platforming climate but it's still a shock when it happens. I'm hardly Germaine Greer but I was campaigning for the cause before they were even born ffs!

I don't always agree with Julie Bindel, but I loved the article she wrote about "stupid little bellends". For that is what they are. Sorry if that's bellendphobic.

I've been banned from an abortion rights group for questioning their use of "pregnant people" and qualifiers like "not only women need to avail of safe legal abortion".

Eh? So the suggestion now is to deny that only biological females can get pregnant. Great.

I find it quite disgusting (and before I started reading about this all...I would have found it unbelievable) that you would be banned from such a group for this. Its sad.

Oh, yes, Venus. Very good points. Because we may vehemently disagree with trans ideology but none of us would wish harm to come to any trans person. We support them having their own spaces. Just not ours.

The people who are a risk to transwomen in terms of violence and abuse are men, but it's always women they get the rage with. I think one of the reasons is wanting to be validated as "one of the girls/lesbians." The other reason, of course, is that it's much safer trying to bully and intimidate women than it is to challenge men, who may hit them.

At the keyboard, however, we are powerful. We are legion! (Just about to launch into Good Queen Bess's speech about having the heart of a king)

Yes, the silencing of women who have fought for women's rights, by other women is extraordinary. We are prepared to exclude people actually working and contributing for the sake of not hurting a tiny minority of people's feelings

In the meantime fewer women will be able to access abortions and abortion is being made illegal in Poland . It's incredible what feminists are prioritising these days

Yes the language has to be changed to accommodate all those men who have crisis pregnancies. Because a transman in possession of a functioning uterus is going to be deeply offended and othered to read their leaflets that refer to "women" and that's more important than reality.

Crossposted - yes Hermione, it's incredibly divisive. Older women who've actually lived in the world for a bit (I'm only in my 40s btw) are being told that their views are obsolete by younger women who haven't yet lived outside their bubble of atudent politics. And women should be sticking together. It's tragic.

(Student I mean)

They'll learn
Just keen to ensure they don't actually screw the world for my dd before they do

Could those posters who say "transwomen are women", please tell me what a woman is?

Thanks.

I would agree with you op, that it is incredible what feminists are prioritising nowadays. Discriminating against transwomen, who are a very small proportion of women, rather than campaigning for universal equality under law would come under that.

I have not said previously that 'transwomen are women' but I will say it now. As for what defines a woman, I don't believe there can be a fixed definition. Not all biological women have complete female genitalia (breasts, vagina, uterus, ovaries). Are they any less women because of this? Some people are born intersex, but choose to identify as women. Is it for someone else to tell them that they aren't a woman?

Transwomen are no less women, if they choose to identify as women. Being a trans person is incredibly difficult.

Fwiw I am a biological female, and have studied a stem subject, in a university that specialised in stem subjects. Women were underrepresented on some courses, but over represented on others. The one trans woman I knew suffered a lot of discrimination, and was constantly labelled 'not a proper woman'. Increasing gender equality on stem subjects can be far better achieved than by creating trans phobic threads on mumsnet. I have done outreach to schools, and mentored sixth formers applying. What have you done op?

Take out your circular reasoning and appropriation of intersex people's experience, and then explain why biological men who do not face the same discrimination or prejudice as women should be eligible for a women's scholarship.